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Author Topic:   Genesis "kinds" may be Nested Hierarchies.
Dredge
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Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 91 of 184 (823647)
11-15-2017 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Taq
11-06-2017 3:15 PM


Taq writes:

How is the observed phylogeny a myth?

Not all ancestors are observed:

"The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils." S. J. Gould, "Evolutions Erratic Pace", Natural History, vol. 86, (1987) p.14.

"... does [the lack of fossil evidence] permit us to invent a tale of continuity in most or all cases? I submit, although it may only reflect my lack of imagination, that the answer is No" - S. J. Gould.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Taq, posted 11-06-2017 3:15 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Pressie, posted 11-15-2017 3:51 AM Dredge has responded
 Message 99 by Taq, posted 11-15-2017 4:05 PM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 92 of 184 (823648)
11-15-2017 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by jar
10-27-2017 6:45 AM


jar writes:

the Fact of Evolution

It is a fact that all life on earth evolved from unicellular organisms?

Both the fact of Evolution as well as the fact that the Theory of Evolution is the only explanation that has ever been presented or tested are both supported by the majority of the recognized Christian faiths. Only the Christian Cult of Ignorance & Dishonesty deny those two facts.

A million wrongs don't make a right.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by jar, posted 10-27-2017 6:45 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 11-15-2017 7:02 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 100 by Taq, posted 11-15-2017 4:06 PM Dredge has responded

    
Tangle
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Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 93 of 184 (823649)
11-15-2017 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dredge
11-15-2017 2:34 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
Dredge writes:

I'd forgotten about how Nebraska Man was invented on the basis of one pig's tooth. That episode demonstrated that the standards of evolution science are of the highest quality.

In the highly unlikely event you'd like to know the actual facts about Nebraska Man I post the Wiki on it below. What you should - but won't - notice is that it happened almost 100 years ago, was never accepted as an ape by science and was rejected by the same science a couple of years later. This proces is how science works and it's how you got to hear about it.

In contrast, the ignoramouses and liars at your creationist web sites still bring these things up as though there was something wrong with the process when it's actually conclusive proof that science works. Mistakes and faulty hypotheses are discarded and knowledge increases.

quote:
From its initial description, Hesperopithecus was regarded as an inconclusive find by a large portion of the scientific community. Examinations of the specimen continued, and the original describers continued to draw comparisons between Hesperopithecus and apes. Further field work on the site in the summers of 1925 and 1926 uncovered other parts of the skeleton. These discoveries revealed that the tooth was incorrectly identified. According to these discovered pieces, the tooth belonged neither to a man nor an ape, but to a fossil of an extinct species of peccary called Prosthennops serus (i.e. a pig). The misidentification was attributed to the fact that the original specimen was severely weathered. The earlier identification as an ape was retracted in the journal Science in 1927.[3][

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebraska_Man


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"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dredge, posted 11-15-2017 2:34 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Dredge, posted 11-28-2017 3:21 AM Tangle has responded

  
Pressie
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Posts: 1856
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 94 of 184 (823653)
11-15-2017 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Dredge
11-15-2017 2:39 AM


Ah, Gould quote mined again.

I love quote mining Gould, too.

Gould writes:

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists -- whether through design or stupidity, I do not know -- as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.

My bold.

From Gould, Stephen Jay 1983. "Evolution as Fact and Theory" in Hens Teeth and Horse's Toes: Further Reflections in Natural History. New York: W. W. Norton & Co., p. 258-260.

Gould writes:

The argument that the literal story of Genesis can qualify as science collapses on three major grounds: the creationists' need to invoke miracles in order to compress the events of the earth's history into the biblical span of a few thousand years; their unwillingness to abandon claims clearly disproved, including the assertion that all fossils are products of Noah's flood; and their reliance upon distortion, misquote, half-quote, and citation out of context to characterize the ideas of their opponents.

My bold.

From "The Verdict on Creationism", The Skeptical Inquirer, Winter 87/88, pg. 186.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Dredge, posted 11-15-2017 2:39 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Dredge, posted 11-28-2017 3:17 AM Pressie has responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1856
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 95 of 184 (823654)
11-15-2017 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dredge
11-15-2017 2:34 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
Dredge writes:

I knew that ... learnt it all in primary school.

Really? In primary school? I think someone called Dredge is very economical with the truth here...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dredge, posted 11-15-2017 2:34 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
jar
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Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 96 of 184 (823659)
11-15-2017 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dredge
11-15-2017 2:44 AM


Dredge writes:

It is a fact that all life on earth evolved from unicellular organisms?

It is a fact that ALL of the evidence ever found shows that life on Earth began as unicellular organisms.

Based on the fact that the evidence shows the Biblical Creation stories are factually wrong, it is also a reasonable conclusion that what ALL of the evidence shows is what actually happened.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Dredge, posted 11-15-2017 2:44 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Percy
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Posts: 16305
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 97 of 184 (823664)
11-15-2017 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Taq
10-23-2017 11:51 AM


I know this was written a while ago, but I'm only just catching up on this thread. Just a minor nit:

Taq writes:

The nested hierarchies were first described by Linnaeus, hundreds of years before Darwin.

A hundred years before Darwin. Linnaeus, 1707-1778. Darwin, 1809-1882.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Taq, posted 10-23-2017 11:51 AM Taq has not yet responded

    
RAZD
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Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 98 of 184 (823691)
11-15-2017 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dredge
11-15-2017 2:34 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
I take your point. If you took the skeletons of all creatures in the world today, you could line them up to form lots of imaginary "evolutionary sequences". All you need to "join the dots" is a bit of imagination. You can play the same meaningless game with fossils.

And yet scientists consistently come to the same nested hierarchy arrangement, just as Linnaeus had, and amazingly they also match what is derived from DNA

It's the consilience of results that demonstrates accuracy.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dredge, posted 11-15-2017 2:34 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Dredge, posted 11-26-2017 6:37 AM RAZD has responded

  
Taq
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Posts: 7277
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 99 of 184 (823709)
11-15-2017 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Dredge
11-15-2017 2:39 AM


Dredge writes:

Not all ancestors are observed:

The fossils that are observed do fit into a nested hierarchy. It isn't a myth. Every single fossil is evidence for evolution because they fit into a nested hierarchy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Dredge, posted 11-15-2017 2:39 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Dredge, posted 11-26-2017 6:40 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7277
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 100 of 184 (823710)
11-15-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dredge
11-15-2017 2:44 AM


Dredge writes:

A million wrongs don't make a right.

You have yet to say a right thing about phylogenetics, so what does that tell you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Dredge, posted 11-15-2017 2:44 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Dredge, posted 11-26-2017 6:44 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
JonF
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Posts: 3998
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 101 of 184 (823712)
11-15-2017 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dredge
11-15-2017 2:34 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
If you took the skeletons of all creatures in the world today, you could line them up to form lots of imaginary "evolutionary sequences". All you need to "join the dots" is a bit of imagination.

So you can easily show us an example of such. Including, of course, your rationale for arranging them in that particular order.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dredge, posted 11-15-2017 2:34 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 109 by Dredge, posted 11-26-2017 6:54 AM JonF has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1856
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 102 of 184 (823731)
11-16-2017 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by JonF
11-15-2017 4:21 PM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
If pigs could fly...

Maybe you should try to explain the joke to creationists. Dredge doesn't seem to be very bright and I don't think that Dredge could even understand the basics.

I'll start. Pigs are tetrapods. Same as birds and bats and humans and Komodo dragons.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by dwise1, posted 11-16-2017 10:34 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
dwise1
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Posts: 3028
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 103 of 184 (823741)
11-16-2017 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Pressie
11-16-2017 6:10 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
I started studying "creation science" in 1981, but it wasn't until a few years later that I was able to discuss any of it with a creationist. That was Charles whom I mention in my 1990 essay, Why I Oppose Creation Science (or, How I got to Here from There). He was a fundamentalist Christian but he had earned a BS Biology. He described Duane Gish of the ICR as his hero. I saw him again years later. He was still a Christian, but he was completely disgusted by the gross dishonesty of creationists and wanted nothing to do with them.

In his objections to evolution, he included the evolution of wings. Now, wings are modified forelimbs, but in his "objection" he had wings being additional limbs such that the end result would be like the popular image of angels with legs, arms, and wings. I questioned that on the spot and he realized his mistake.

So, yeah, I do not doubt that Dredge would make the same mistake. The difference is that he is so dishonest that he will continue to bluff in order to push his wrong ideas.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 104 of 184 (824290)
11-26-2017 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by RAZD
11-15-2017 2:36 PM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
They have to arrive at a nested hierarchies otherwise evolution falls to pieces - and that would be like losing one's religion or getting kicked out of the cult.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by RAZD, posted 11-15-2017 2:36 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 105 of 184 (824292)
11-26-2017 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Taq
11-15-2017 4:05 PM


Real trees have real branches - not assumed or imaginary ones.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Taq, posted 11-15-2017 4:05 PM Taq has not yet responded

    
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