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Author Topic:   For All Hallows Eve
Heathen
Member
Posts: 1029
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


(1)
Message 16 of 72 (822754)
11-01-2017 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Son Goku
11-01-2017 7:15 AM


Re: Samhain
EDIT: I just asked my wife and in her area it was "Oíche na nÚll", or "Apple night" and nothing else was associated with it.

Plain old Halloween where I grew up (Dublin), we were never big on the "cupla focal" in the Pale.
(of course it was pushed as "All saints eve/day" by the parish. We were just glad of the bank holiday)

We always trick or treated and always had a bonfire with fireworks (illegally bought on Henry Street). No pumpkins (or turnips) though, that was a later affectation.

Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26593
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 72 (822758)
11-01-2017 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Son Goku
11-01-2017 7:15 AM


Re: Samhain
In a way it's been Satan's holiday from its inception
a day to indulge the flesh
Ghosts and bones both contrast with the Chrsitian views of salvation and resurrection

Faith, it's kids asking for sweets at doors.

T'weren't always so though, that's a very new version of it. And my point was that the imagery and intent of Mardi Gras (indulging the flesh) and Halloween as well as Dia de los Muertos (ghosts and bones/skulls) shows that they are not Christian in spirt, that's all, they are pagan. Today few remember much about their origins. (see Message 6)

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26593
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 72 (822759)
11-01-2017 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
11-01-2017 6:09 AM


Christmas and Easter and Pentecost and Lent and Maundy Thursday and Good Friday and All Hallows Eve and All Saints Day and Advent are all simply re-purposed pagan holidays.

But only two of them could be said to be genuinely Christian (biblical) anyway, Pentecost and Easter (Passover), all the rest were made up by6 the Church later on.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 11 by jar, posted 11-01-2017 6:09 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 11-01-2017 11:57 AM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29609
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 19 of 72 (822764)
11-01-2017 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
11-01-2017 11:28 AM


But Pentecost and Easter were simply repurposed Jewish holidays which in turn were just repurposed harvest fests.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 11-01-2017 11:28 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 11-01-2017 12:05 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 26593
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 20 of 72 (822765)
11-01-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
11-01-2017 11:57 AM


Passover was given by God to the Israelites some 1500 or so years before Christ, and since the New Testament is to be our source of understanding of the Old Testament, we know that Passover was always a messianic prophecy. It was finally fulfilled by Jesus on the cross as our sacrificed "Lamb of God" who "takes away the sins of the world," removing our sentence of death under the Moral Law, just as the blood of the original Passover lamb painted on the door frames protected the Israelites in the house from the angel of death.

Pentecost is indeed modeled on a harvest theme, the "first fruits" of the harvest, understood in the New Testament to be symbolic of the spiritual baptism of Christ Jesus' followers, as the Holy Spirit was given to the Church on that day.

In any case both are in scripture as God-given observances, and all the rest on your list are later traditions.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 11-01-2017 11:57 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 11-01-2017 12:53 PM Faith has responded
 Message 24 by Son Goku, posted 11-01-2017 1:18 PM Faith has responded

    
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1082
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 6.4


(1)
Message 21 of 72 (822772)
11-01-2017 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
11-01-2017 11:20 AM


Re: Samhain
T'weren't always so though, that's a very new version of it

So? If it's what kids are doing now, does it matter what it was. My point is more describing kids eating candy and wearing a witch costume as "indulging the flesh" and "pagan" is a bit overblown.
This message is a reply to:
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jar
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Posts: 29609
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 22 of 72 (822775)
11-01-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
11-01-2017 12:05 PM


Yawn.

There never was an Exodus for the Passover story is just another fable and another adopted festival.

There is absolutely no connection between Passover and any Messianic prophesy; that just more made up stuff by apologists.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 11-01-2017 12:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 11-01-2017 1:04 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26593
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 72 (822783)
11-01-2017 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
11-01-2017 12:53 PM


You always manage to assert something that contradicts the entire history of Christian theology as developed by the best theologians. Nobody should pay the slightest attention to anything you say about Christianity, it will only mislead them, but at EvC unfortunately you can get away with it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 11-01-2017 12:53 PM jar has responded

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Son Goku
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Posts: 1082
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 24 of 72 (822786)
11-01-2017 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
11-01-2017 12:05 PM


Messianic Passover
since the New Testament is to be our source of understanding of the Old Testament, we know that Passover was always a messianic prophecy

Where in the New Testament does it state this?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 11-01-2017 12:05 PM Faith has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 29609
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 25 of 72 (822790)
11-01-2017 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
11-01-2017 1:04 PM


Faith writes:

You always manage to assert something that contradicts the entire history of Christian theology as developed by the best theologians.

Yes, I point out when they just make shit up.

Faith writes:

Nobody should pay the slightest attention to anything you say about Christianity, it will only mislead them, but at EvC unfortunately you can get away with it.

Yet what I post is supported by the Bible as well as reality and not just what apologists make up.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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ringo
Member
Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 26 of 72 (822801)
11-01-2017 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Faith
10-31-2017 5:21 PM


Re: a bit of history
Faith writes:

From a day to honor the early Christian martyrs to a celebration of ghoulishness.


quote:
There's got to be a morning after
If we can hold on through the night
We have a chance to find the sunshine
Let's keep on looking for the light
-- Maureen McGovern

It's about good triumphing over evil.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Faith, posted 10-31-2017 5:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26593
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 72 (822867)
11-02-2017 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Son Goku
11-01-2017 1:18 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
since the New Testament is to be our source of understanding of the Old Testament, we know that Passover was always a messianic prophecy

Where in the New Testament does it state this?

The New Testament shows more than it actually says, it's subtle and sophisticated in its teaching. The Passover is implied in calling Jesus the Lamb of God for starters, as John does frequently in his wriitings, also in any mentions of His blood as shed for us.

In 1 Corinthians 5:7 Jesus is literally called "Christ our Passover."

At the Last Supper, Jesus tells His disciples "This is My body which is given for you. Also, " For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. "

All these identify Jesus as the Passover Lamb. Along with the fact that he was crucified on the Passover itself and so on.

He was the fulfillment of ALL the animal sacrifices for sin made throughout the OT, but most particularly the Passover Lamb. Hebrews 9:12-14 describes Him as the ultimate sacrifice:

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 9:13
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

Heb 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?



This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 11-02-2017 7:18 PM Faith has responded
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 11-03-2017 12:04 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29609
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 28 of 72 (822872)
11-02-2017 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
11-02-2017 5:49 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Again, those are all examples of after the fact fabrication to create a perception of some fulfilled prophecy, not of any actual fulfillment.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 11-02-2017 5:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 11-03-2017 3:43 PM jar has responded
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 4:30 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 29 of 72 (822913)
11-03-2017 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
11-02-2017 5:49 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Faith writes:

In 1 Corinthians 5:7 Jesus is literally called "Christ our Passover."


The trouble with literalists is that they don't know what literal means.

In Corinthians, Jesus is figuratively called our Passover. When He is called a lamb, it doesn't mean that He literally has four hooves and wool. It's figurative.

It means He's kinda like a lamb, He's kinda like the Passover.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 11-02-2017 5:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 4:26 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10041
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 30 of 72 (822924)
11-03-2017 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
11-02-2017 7:18 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
jar,to Faith writes:

Again, those are all examples of after the fact fabrication to create a perception of some fulfilled prophecy, not of any actual fulfillment.

I'm gonna call you on this one. Who did the fact checking? How do we know that the textual critics have ulterior motives as well? How solid is their case and who are they?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 11-02-2017 7:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 4:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 4:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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