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Author Topic:   For All Hallows Eve
jar
Member
Posts: 29603
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 31 of 72 (822929)
11-03-2017 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
11-03-2017 3:43 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Phat writes:

I'm gonna call you on this one. Who did the fact checking? How do we know that the textual critics have ulterior motives as well? How solid is their case and who are they?

Too funny.

The facts are what was written. What Faith presented is stuff written after the fact and not what actually happened but rather what the authors wished were true.

The fact is there is nothing in the Exodus Passover story to even vaguely suggest Jesus. It is not in any way a Prophecy.

The authors of the New Testament works though claim that Jesus fulfills some prophesy that does not even exist in the original.

It is pure apologetics.

It has nothing to do with textural criticism but rather honesty, reality and the evidence itself.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26589
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 72 (822930)
11-03-2017 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
11-03-2017 12:04 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Of COURSE it's figurative. Sheesh. It means Christ functions for us as the lamb slaughtered for passover functions, as a sacrifice that protects us from eternal death. His blood protects us from the angel of death as the original Passover lamb did. In this case the "second death" or eternal suffering.

The trouble with critics of the claim to literalness is that you take it way too literally. But since you do it's not the best word: what is meant is that we read the bible as it is meant to be read.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26589
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 72 (822932)
11-03-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
11-02-2017 7:18 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Well since you put yourself above the entire history of Christian theology, two thousand years' worth of the world's best theologians, I guess you feel you and you alone can tell us what scripture means since they are obviously idiots and you have some special ability to read scripture they and all the rest of us lack.

What is your evidence that the scripture was invented to pretend to fulfilled prophecy?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 11-02-2017 7:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 5:15 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26589
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 72 (822934)
11-03-2017 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
11-03-2017 3:43 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Some of the most famous modern textual critics admit to being unbelievers, even to such things as denying that the obviously prophetic Book of Daniel is in fact prophetic. I forget his name, the most famous one, he doesn't mind destroying the narrative continuity of the book and accusing Daniel of lying about when he wrote it, just because he doesn't believe in prophecy. It's crazy that these guys got any authority in Biblical criticism at all.
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26589
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 72 (822935)
11-03-2017 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
11-03-2017 4:17 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Sorry, the theologians understand that prophecy in the OT is often cryptic; it takes spiritual acumen to recognize it. This is so that Satan and insincere people can't understand it. But nobody has to work TOO hard to see the truth: the NT makes clear what was meant as prophecy and is now fulfilled. Jesus himself told the disciples on the way to Emmaus that the OT is all about Him. To you that means he's lying or the writers of the passage are lying. You really have some nerve the way you put yourself above scripture and Christian exegetical history.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 4:17 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Taq, posted 11-03-2017 4:52 PM Faith has responded
 Message 39 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 5:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 36 of 72 (822936)
11-03-2017 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
11-03-2017 4:43 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Faith writes:

Sorry, the theologians understand that prophecy in the OT is often cryptic; it takes spiritual acumen to recognize it. This is so that Satan and insincere people can't understand it. But nobody has to work TOO hard to see the truth: the NT makes clear what was meant as prophecy and is now fulfilled.

Then I proclaim myself as the Messiah, and if you don't agree it is because you are being influenced by Satan and are insincere.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 4:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26589
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 72 (822937)
11-03-2017 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Taq
11-03-2017 4:52 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
You'd have to have a couple of millennia of testimony from millions as well as the work of great theologians interpreting the scriptures before you'd have any chance of being taken seriously by serious people. Perhaps you'd get a small following from your EvC buds though. Sometimes that is enough to get a small movement going. Have fun.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 29603
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 38 of 72 (822939)
11-03-2017 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
11-03-2017 4:30 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Faith writes:

Well since you put yourself above the entire history of Christian theology, two thousand years' worth of the world's best theologians, I guess you feel you and you alone can tell us what scripture means since they are obviously idiots and you have some special ability to read scripture they and all the rest of us lack.

What is your evidence that the scripture was invented to pretend to fulfilled prophecy?

The evidence is the fact that the New Testament stories were written long after the facts of Jesus if Jesus actually existed and there is nothing in the Old Testament material to even suggest that they refer to Jesus in any way.

It takes no special ability, only honesty.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 4:30 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 5:39 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29603
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 39 of 72 (822940)
11-03-2017 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
11-03-2017 4:43 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Faith writes:

Sorry, the theologians understand that prophecy in the OT is often cryptic; it takes spiritual acumen to recognize it.

Sorry but spiritual acumen is simply shorthand for bullshit.

Faith writes:

This is so that Satan and insincere people can't understand it.

And that is a really great example of trying to shovel ten pounds of shit into a one pound bag. Sorry but that is simply laughable.

Faith writes:

You really have some nerve the way you put yourself above scripture and Christian exegetical history.

No nerve required, only honesty faith, something totally lacking in the Biblical Christian culture.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 4:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26589
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 40 of 72 (822942)
11-03-2017 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
11-03-2017 5:15 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
That's a big fat lie of the modern critics that the NT was written long after the events. Jesus said the OT is about him and if you know how to read it correctly, which obviously you don't, you can find him on every page.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 5:15 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-03-2017 6:21 PM Faith has not yet responded
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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 978
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 41 of 72 (822946)
11-03-2017 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
11-03-2017 5:39 PM


Jesus spoke Aramaic but the Gospels were written in Greek.
quote:

That's a big fat lie of the modern critics that the NT was written long after the events.

He spoke in Aramaic but there are no original Aramaic Gospels.

All scholars agree that the 4 Gospels were written in Greek.

So at best, the Gospels are somebody in Greek writing the words of an Aramaic Galilean.

There were over 5000 New testament manuscripts before 1000 AD and no two agree 100%.

Only after the printing press was invented were there copies known to have been word for word.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 5:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by dwise1, posted 11-03-2017 6:48 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29603
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 42 of 72 (822947)
11-03-2017 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
11-03-2017 5:39 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Faith writes:

That's a big fat lie of the modern critics that the NT was written long after the events. Jesus said the OT is about him and if you know how to read it correctly, which obviously you don't, you can find him on every page.

Yet once again reality says you are wrong. For example, Paul never even met Jesus so everything Paul wrote is from after Jesus died. The author of John was writing over a half century after Jesus died.

You claiming something is a lie is simply another of your unsupported assertions,.

The reality is that all of the New Testament was written after Jesus died. All of the New Testament is written after anything in the Old Testament. And nothing in the Old Testament mentions or refers to Jesus.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 5:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 10:39 PM jar has responded

  
dwise1
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Posts: 2994
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 43 of 72 (822948)
11-03-2017 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by LamarkNewAge
11-03-2017 6:21 PM


Re: Jesus spoke Aramaic but the Gospels were written in Greek.
He spoke in Aramaic but there are no original Aramaic Gospels.

In our Greek class in the early 1970's, we worked from Bruce Metzger's Greek New Testament. It is considered a translator's bible because it is heavily annotated. For each verse, the source manuscripts and papyri are noted along with variant text from those sources.

What I remember is that while most of those sources were in Greek, there were some, though a rather small number, in Aramaic. What I do not remember is whether any of those Aramaic sources were to any verses in the Gospels. I have Metzger's book, "The Text of the New Testament", but I have better things to do than to read through that entire book in order to cast pearls before Faith (we all know her response to such efforts all too well).

As for the dates of the earliest manuscripts, we have New Testament Manuscripts in Wikipedia giving c. 125 CE as the date of the earliest manuscript, which was to a verse in John. That date agrees with what I've always heard and read. That date would also place the earliest written NT source at about one full century after the purported events.

Of course, if Faith disagrees and wants to claim that there are earlier manuscripts, then she should name some of those earlier manuscripts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-03-2017 6:21 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 978
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 44 of 72 (822950)
11-03-2017 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by dwise1
11-03-2017 6:48 PM


Re: Jesus spoke Aramaic but the Gospels were written in Greek.
quote:

In our Greek class in the early 1970's, we worked from Bruce Metzger's Greek New Testament. It is considered a translator's bible because it is heavily annotated. For each verse, the source manuscripts and papyri are noted along with variant text from those sources.
What I remember is that while most of those sources were in Greek, there were some, though a rather small number, in Aramaic. What I do not remember is whether any of those Aramaic sources were to any verses in the Gospels. I have Metzger's book, "The Text of the New Testament", but I have better things to do than to read through that entire book in order to cast pearls before Faith (we all know her response to such efforts all too well).

There are a few verses (in the Greek Gospels) with Aramaic words of Jesus. There were sources (that the Gospels used) that were in Aramaic or were in a Greek translation that ultimately went back to Aramaic.

But that is not what you remember in the Metzger book.

He was looking at variants in the oldest manuscripts (or those among the oldest). That included Old Syriac.

quote:

As for the dates of the earliest manuscripts, we have New Testament Manuscripts in Wikipedia giving c. 125 CE as the date of the earliest manuscript, which was to a verse in John. That date agrees with what I've always heard and read. That date would also place the earliest written NT source at about one full century after the purported events.

The John text carbon dates from 125 to 175.

A fragment of Mark (found in an Egyptian mummy mask that was made material that had a text of Mark repurposed for artwork) was recently found that carbon dates from 80 to 130 AD.


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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26589
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 72 (822951)
11-03-2017 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
11-03-2017 6:35 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Of course it was written after Jesus died, but not LONG after, most of it was before 60 AD. Those that do not allude at all to the major event of 70 AD, the destruction of the temple, were earlier than that date at least. John wrote the Book of Revelation in his nineties but his other writings long before that. They were written after years of preaching the same content too, so the material was still fresh when it was written.

The Old testament is all about Jesus, as He said. Too bad you don't know how to read scripture or you'd know that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 6:35 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by PaulK, posted 11-04-2017 3:46 AM Faith has responded
 Message 50 by jar, posted 11-04-2017 7:49 AM Faith has responded

    
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