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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5603
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 392 of 662 (840670)
10-03-2018 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by Faith
10-02-2018 7:08 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
I'm sure some Christians do confuse their Christian life with their worldly life, and I'm also sure these discussions usually revolve around just that sort of confusion, unbelievers in particular always misapplying what Jesus said to individual believers, confusing it with the obligations of government and citizenship in this world.

What exactly is a "worldly life" versus a "Christian life?" Real life versus fantasy land?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 7:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 6:37 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5603
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.5


(2)
Message 393 of 662 (840671)
10-03-2018 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 391 by Minnemooseus
10-02-2018 11:39 PM


Re: Open carry making you a preferred target?
Really a reply to Jar & ICANT, but also a follow up to Percy's message.
I think that being an open carry person would somewhat be like wearing a jacket with a bullseye on it.

If a full-blown wacko is out with his gun, who is going to catch his attention? Who is going to make him feel threatened?

Is he going to be deterred by seeing your holstered sidearm? I don't think so. He's thinking "That guy is going to be dead before he can unholster his sidearm."

Drawing attention and making yourself appear threatening is not the way to make yourself safer.

I tend to agree for these reasons. Open Carry is now legal in Texas and I will respect the law, but as for me, I choose to be as low key as possible. I don't like people knowing I have a gun on me for a lot of reasons.

Having a gun on your hip isn't a deterrent as much as it is a big, bright neon sign that you're the first target to dispose of.

Its been my experience that the people that walk around open carry do so for attention - they tend to gravitate towards stirring up shit just to see what will happen. Being armed is an issue of practicality not a fashion statement or a political statement.

Secondly, guns make a lot of people uncomfortable. Having one so brazenly and openly exposed just invites trouble that otherwise would be avoided by concealing it and them being none-the-wiser.

Just my two cents.

An interesting story about Texas. All the laws around knives, swords, axes, you name it, have been taken off the books. I got a call on a guy walking around with a Samurai sword and had to let him on his merry way. But talk about inviting problems...

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Minnemooseus, posted 10-02-2018 11:39 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6351
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 394 of 662 (840676)
10-03-2018 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by ICANT
10-02-2018 7:26 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:


If you met me on the street you would not know if I had my 44 magnum in my possession or not. If you met me in the woods you would see it hanging on my hip, and my shotgun in my hand or over my shoulder.

The question was whether Jesus would approve of you carrying hand guns and knives around in public. Perhaps you could answer that.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by ICANT, posted 10-02-2018 7:26 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by ICANT, posted 10-05-2018 5:47 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30162
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 395 of 662 (840684)
10-03-2018 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Hyroglyphx
10-03-2018 12:31 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Not clear enough I guess. There is a distinction between the Christian life of individual interactions and our lives as members of worldly governments and societies in this world. Jesus did not tell the Roman Centurions who believed in Him to give up their calling as soldiers although they too were called to turn the other cheek and walk the extra mile in the right contexts as all other believers are.

I also often think of what Watchman Nee said to Christian women who refused to cover their heads in church on the basis of their freedom in Christ: he said we must not frustrate God's government by God's grace. As long as we live on this fallen planet we are subject to God's government in various forms and are not to be ruled by God's grace as our individual lives are supposed to be. Women should be covering our heads in church and it is a violation of God's government that this practice has been so largely abandoned; it is not a matter for grace in this case.

Also we can't apply standards of grace to worldly governments. Governments can't turn the other cheek or walk the extra mile with their enemies because that would be abandoning their first obligation which is to protect their citizens.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-03-2018 12:31 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 396 of 662 (840687)
10-03-2018 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by Minnemooseus
10-01-2018 4:08 AM


Re: Jar has really tacky taste in jewelry
Moose writes:

ps - I would approve of open carrying a bong, which would probably get you in more trouble in Texas.

Probably do fine in Texas, assuming that anyone knew what a bong was.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Minnemooseus, posted 10-01-2018 4:08 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 397 of 662 (840688)
10-03-2018 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by Percy
10-01-2018 9:22 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Percy writes:

You *are* bragging, and inappropriately since your individual experience cannot be extrapolated to the national gun crisis.

But again Percy, you are just misrepresenting what I have posted. I have NEVER tried to extrapolate my individual experience to any national issue (I don't see a National Gun Crisis but to see a National intelligence and education crisis).

Throughout this whole topic I have tried to make it clear I am talking only about me and not any general principle. In fact if the subject was US drivers my position would be much the same, life would be better if all the other drivers were off the road.

The issue as I see it is NOT the gun but rather the fact that in so many ways the US today is really fucked up. What needs to be changed is the people and that will take generations or a major pandemic I fear.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Percy, posted 10-01-2018 9:22 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 398 of 662 (840694)
10-03-2018 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by ICANT
10-02-2018 8:23 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

Where did He say that?

quote:
Luke 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by ICANT, posted 10-02-2018 8:23 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by ICANT, posted 10-05-2018 6:37 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 399 of 662 (840695)
10-03-2018 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 386 by ICANT
10-02-2018 7:58 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

You slap me on one cheek I will turn the other.


I don't think that's what Jesus intended. There's always an "other" cheek.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by ICANT, posted 10-02-2018 7:58 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17968
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 400 of 662 (840708)
10-03-2018 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by ICANT
10-02-2018 9:09 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

Do you think I will become mentally ill after I leave my house on the way to town?...etc...

Obviously the onset of mental illness, despondency, violent anger, decrepitness, drunkenness, carelessness, poor judgment, etc., could occur at any time/place and then extend on into the future.

Yes I am imperfect...

Yes, you are susceptible to all the frailties man is heir to.

...but they will not happen in a day's time.

Some can happen in less than a day's time (carelessness, poor judgment, drunkenness), others can occur gradually.

I have a wonderful wife of 62 years and I am sure if I started suffering from any of the things you mentioned she would hide all my ammunition, car keys, and truck keys if they did happen.

I think we can assume that your wife is, like yourself and all other people, imperfect. So your proposal is that society's safety from your self of diminished capacity be dependent upon your wife detecting your altered state and how well she hides your weapons versus how good you are at finding them or acquiring others (30 minutes in Tampa, I think you said). And aren't your weapons locked up in separate boxes? And aren't the keys available only to you? Assuming they're available only to you, how is she to hide them? Or does your wife have access to the keys, too? If so, is your wife as good a safe weapons expert as you are? What if your wife experiences a diminished episode?

But I would hope that with all the training and practice I have had I would recognize them coming on and take care of the problem myself.

You think you'll recognize the onset of mental illness or mental decline?

Percy writes:

So you gun nuts are so determined to have your guns that you'd buy them on the black market if you couldn't obtain them legally? Wow!

No I have enough to last me the rest of my life.

But say gun laws change and your guns are taken away. You're saying you'd be willing to replace them on the black market. Scary.

But just think if I could get one that quick how long would it take a criminal to get one?

So driven by delusions of shootouts with criminals where you save the day, you're going to make things even worse by obtaining guns by any means necessary, thereby increasing the danger to yourself and those around you.

The those you referred to up above in your message are the criminals I just mentioned.

By "those people" I meant all who have such extravagantly elevated opinions of their gun skills that they're willing to place themselves and those around them in greater danger.

Percy writes:

Rifles? I believe you and Jar's bragging has been about the handguns you all are toting, not rifles. Around 90% of murders are committed with handguns, as opposed to rifles and shotguns.

Then why are you always talking about AR15 weapons of war?

I wasn't. I was responding to you and Jar about your open carry of your handguns. A quick search reveals that out of 80 messages I've mentioned the AR15 three times.

That is what is always put forth as the reason for banning guns.

The vast majority of gun deaths are due to handguns, and that is the primary motivation for banning guns. Semi-automatic weapons involved in mass murders get the bulk of the news space, but they are not responsible for most of the gun deaths.

But I prefer my shotgun over any other weapon. As Mr Bidden...

Mr. Bidden? You mean Joe Biden?

...says just shoot both barrels at once. That would not work out too well I would prefer a pump action magazine fed 14" barrel that can fire a shell that has 15 pellets per shell that are about the size of an AR15 bullet. Then if that magazine happens to hold 28 shells just think of the damage that could be done with it.

I prefer to think about preventing the potential death and injury.

Percy writes:

What I actually think you ought to do is think rationally while considering the facts.

Fact 1 is I have owned and used guns 72 years of my 79 years on the earth.
...
<More "facts" about I this and I that and I the other thing>
etc...

Are you daft? Of what possible use is a sample size of one? You speculated on what I thought you ought to do, and you were wrong. What I actually think you ought to do is think rationally while considering the facts. That doesn't mean facts about a single individual, namely yourself, but about the statistical information gathered across populations by certain groups, such as the FBI's Crime in the United States.

Percy writes:

Like others who have recently commented I am struck by the degree to which the religious are attracted to guns and the military.

We love our country and took an oath to protect the constitution of the United States of America which is a Republic not a democracy as many claim.

God Bless,

Ah, I see, you're expressing your love of country when you endanger your fellow citizens by strapping your piece to your hip and strolling about town. I am still struck by the degree to which the religious are attracted to guns and the military.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by ICANT, posted 10-02-2018 9:09 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-04-2018 12:06 AM Percy has responded
 Message 414 by ICANT, posted 10-05-2018 10:26 PM Percy has responded

    
Aussie
Member
Posts: 216
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 401 of 662 (840715)
10-03-2018 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by ICANT
10-02-2018 7:14 PM


Re: Problem
I defend my right that is given to me by our forefathers who gave us the second amendment. I am well trained in weapons of all kinds and if you came at me without a gun I would not need my gun to get the same result, although I am getting a little old, and can't bench press over 200 lbs I think I would get by.

Well. The bragging doesn't stop at just guns. ICANT, the Chuck Norris of EVC forum, threatens that he can take me out with his bare fists. I was an avid weight lifter, and 200 pounds is not as heavy as most non-lifters think... but I'm in really bad shape if an 80 year old can take me down...unless you are secretly Chuck Norris. *looking suspiciously at you*

Or perhaps your "Corruptible has already put on the incorruptible."

If you speak with such violence now, just imagine all the physical trauma you will be able to inflict when you finally have your powerful glorified body!

By the way I did not notice how long you had been here only that you had a few posts and I did not remember you ever answering one of my posts.

I've been here a long time, but as I am mostly interested in the science forums, I have refrained from commenting and focused more on learning from the actual science experts here. I don't remember ever interacting with you before this exchange.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by ICANT, posted 10-02-2018 7:14 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
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Aussie
Member
Posts: 216
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 402 of 662 (840716)
10-03-2018 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by ICANT
10-02-2018 8:14 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
In his position I would have done the same except I would have cut his head off.

You would have done the same as the rebuked by Jesus Peter, except you would have intentionally inflicted far greater physical trauma. Well done.

I feel safer already.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by ICANT, posted 10-02-2018 8:14 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by ICANT, posted 10-05-2018 11:21 PM Aussie has responded

    
Aussie
Member
Posts: 216
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 403 of 662 (840717)
10-03-2018 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by ICANT
10-02-2018 7:58 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
You slap me on one cheek I will turn the other. After that all bets are off.

Maybe a good letter of the law answer. I have a reasonable expectation that this is not in the spirit of Jesus' message, you know, the whole seventy times seven message.

But if you start to point a gun at me I will blow your brains out before you can shoot me if I can.

The almost palpable glee in which you threaten physical and graphic violence against your fellow humans is becoming unnerving, pastor ICANT. Have you noticed that the atheists aren't talking that way?


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by ICANT, posted 10-02-2018 7:58 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17968
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 404 of 662 (840718)
10-03-2018 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by jar
10-03-2018 9:56 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
jar writes:

Percy writes:

You *are* bragging, and inappropriately since your individual experience cannot be extrapolated to the national gun crisis.


But again Percy, you are just misrepresenting what I have posted. I have NEVER tried to extrapolate my individual experience to any national issue (I don't see a National Gun Crisis but to see a National intelligence and education crisis).

Throughout this whole topic I have tried to make it clear I am talking only about me and not any general principle.

That's why I said your bragging about yourself wasn't appropriate to this topic, which is about gun control and therefore about statistics about populations, not about individual experiences. This has been explained several times in several different ways. I do see a gun crisis since more than 30,000 people a year are killed by guns. I also see an education deficiency concerning the dangers of guns and how they place people in greater danger.

In fact if the subject was US drivers my position would be much the same, life would be better if all the other drivers were off the road.

All drivers off the road??? Seriously??? This is just a plain nutty thing to say. Cars contribute positively by transporting goods everywhere nationally including to your door, and by transporting people to work, soccer games, stores, shopping malls, amusement parks, friends and family, etc. Cars kill about the same number of people as guns. When guns make some equivalent positive contribution as cars, let us know. In the meantime you can contemplate this graph:

In more than 20 states gun deaths exceed car deaths. Texas isn't one of them (yet), but it was close, 3794 car deaths versus 3353 gun deaths in 2016.

The issue as I see it is NOT the gun but rather the fact that in so many ways the US today is really fucked up. What needs to be changed is the people and that will take generations or a major pandemic I fear.

People are the same the world over. Human beings in the US are the same as human beings everywhere else. All that needs to change is the culture of guns that causes people to see an instrument of death as their salvation.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by jar, posted 10-03-2018 9:56 AM jar has not yet responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1551
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 405 of 662 (840719)
10-03-2018 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by ICANT
10-02-2018 7:47 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Thanks for the stats. However, these don't support your claim.

quote:
2016 Death by following means:
Total firearms 11,004
Handguns 7,105
Rifles up to 375 over 2015, 258 due to mass shootings.
Shotguns 262
Cutting instruments 1604.
Blunt objects 472.
Personal weapons, hands, fists, feet. 656.
You can find those stats: https://ucr.fbi.gov/...es/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls

Firstly, the stats you're looking at are for homicides. Your claim was that more people were killed by, amongst other things, fists than by rifles. The number of homicide victims killed by firearms makes up less than a third of those killed by firearms, so you're not comparing apples to apples. I don't think Percy is expecting you to murder someone - your guns are more likely to kill someone by accident or someone committing suicide than by you actively trying to kill someone.

Whilst we don't have any figures for the number of suicides and accidental deaths caused by fists, I'm guessing less it's negligible.

To nitpick a little, your claim about more people being killed by fists (or feet) than by rifles can also not be substantiated by the above. The numbers for fists, feet and personal weapons are combined; and are less than double the total for rifles. It's entirely plausible that the majority of those involved weapons, meaning rifles would easily account for more murders than fists. They almost certainly account for more deaths.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by ICANT, posted 10-02-2018 7:47 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5603
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 406 of 662 (840752)
10-04-2018 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 400 by Percy
10-03-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Obviously the onset of mental illness, despondency, violent anger, decrepitness, drunkenness, carelessness, poor judgment, etc., could occur at any time/place and then extend on into the future.

Your whole argument seems to be that people can snap at any time, therefore they shouldn't be afforded even the opportunity to be armed. How easily can you make that same argument for anything else... knives, vehicles, cinderblocks, household kitchen items to make bombs, etc. You have to balance the utility of something with what its been demonstrated to do. For every gun fired maliciously, there are 10,000 that haven't.... because it wasn't necessary.

But say gun laws change and your guns are taken away. You're saying you'd be willing to replace them on the black market. Scary.

That's what violent felons would be doing and already do.

So driven by delusions of shootouts with criminals where you save the day, you're going to make things even worse by obtaining guns by any means necessary, thereby increasing the danger to yourself and those around you.

Well, when you consider that virtually all the maniacs that have gone on shooting rampages have been stopped by guns its not so impossible to believe. There's an interesting YouTube channel named "Active Self-Protection" that gathers an assortment of clips of what would have been massacres that were stopped early... which is why we don't hear about them. Not sensational enough and not in keeping with the agenda.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Percy, posted 10-03-2018 12:27 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Percy, posted 10-04-2018 11:45 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
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