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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Percy
Member
Posts: 17749
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 407 of 447 (840784)
10-04-2018 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Hyroglyphx
10-04-2018 12:06 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hyroglyphyx writes:

Obviously the onset of mental illness, despondency, violent anger, decrepitness, drunkenness, carelessness, poor judgment, etc., could occur at any time/place and then extend on into the future.

Your whole argument seems to be that people can snap at any time,...

That would be false. I list many human weaknesses people might fall prey to. Some could be characterized as "snapping" I suppose, most could not.

...therefore they shouldn't be afforded even the opportunity to be armed.

No, that is not my argument. My argument is that people are too imperfect to be entrusted with something as dangerous as a gun.

How easily can you make that same argument for anything else...

You're referring to an argument I haven't made, but let's consider the remainder of what you say as if you had correctly characterized my position:

...knives, vehicles, cinderblocks, household kitchen items to make bombs, etc. You have to balance the utility of something with what its been demonstrated to do.

Yes, I agree. Cars are probably the best example of balancing risk and utility.

For every gun fired maliciously, there are 10,000 that haven't.... because it wasn't necessary.

The term "maliciously" is used inaccurately. The concern is about any gun fired for any reason that causes injury or death. The concern even extends to guns fired for any reason (excluding most target practice, I suppose) that by good fortune do not hit anyone, since that's sheer luck.

But say gun laws change and your guns are taken away. You're saying you'd be willing to replace them on the black market. Scary.

That's what violent felons would be doing and already do.

That's what ICANT says he would do.

So driven by delusions of shootouts with criminals where you save the day, you're going to make things even worse by obtaining guns by any means necessary, thereby increasing the danger to yourself and those around you.

Well, when you consider that virtually all the maniacs that have gone on shooting rampages have been stopped by guns its not so impossible to believe.

This is untrue. The Parkland shooter dropped his weapons and walked out of the school building with other students. The Sandy Hook shooter committed suicide. The Las Vegas shooter committed suicide. And while the Orlando nightclub shooter was killed by the police, he held off a hundred armed cops and killed many people during the four hours before he was killed.

There's an interesting YouTube channel named "Active Self-Protection" that gathers an assortment of clips of what would have been massacres that were stopped early... which is why we don't hear about them. Not sensational enough and not in keeping with the agenda.

I don't have infinite time, I don't like watching videos because I can read far faster than I can view a video, but I did watch the top three videos on that Active Self Protection YouTube page. One was a training film. The second was about an assault not involving guns. The third was an armed robber who displayed no murderous intent (was his gun even loaded?) being murdered by what is described as an off duty policeman who fired multiple shots when other people could have been behind the robber. One woman is shown walking behind the robber just before the shots are fired.

None of these are potential massacres, so I just wasted my time. If you have videos that support your claim of "massacres that were stopped early" then include them in your next post. Better would be documented news stories from legitimate sources because they can be read much, much faster than a video can be viewed.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-04-2018 12:06 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by ICANT, posted 10-05-2018 5:41 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17749
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 408 of 447 (840856)
10-04-2018 6:29 PM


The Dangers of Guns at Home and Away
The eagerness of some here to own guns and even carry them around in public indicates that they doubt that guns really place them in greater danger, but there can be little doubt about this. I could go back in the thread and the predecessor thread and just cut-n-paste old links into this post, but I'll instead check what's out there on the web today.

Regarding guns in the home:

  • Living in a house with a gun increases your odds of death:

    quote:
    One meta-analysis "found strong evidence for increased odds of suicide among persons with access to firearms compared with those without access and moderate evidence for an attenuated increased odds of homicide victimization when persons with and without access to firearms were compared." The latter finding is stronger for women, a reminder that guns are also a risk factor for domestic violence.
    ...
    "When 34 injury prevention experts were asked to prioritize home injury hazards for young children, based on frequency, severity, and preventability of the injury, the experts rated access to firearms in the home as the most significant hazard," Harvard gun expert David Hemenway writes. The American Academy of Pediatrics has stated that "the absence of guns from children's homes and communities is the most reliable and effective measure to prevent firearm-related injuries in children and adolescents."

  • Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study

    This study's from 2004. From the abstract:

    quote:
    Data from a US mortality follow-back survey were analyzed to determine whether having a firearm in the home increases the risk of a violent death in the home and whether risk varies by storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 1.9, 95% confidence interval: 1.1, 3.4). They were also at greater risk of dying from a firearm homicide, but risk varied by age and whether the person was living with others at the time of death. The risk of dying from a suicide in the home was greater for males in homes with guns than for males without guns in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 10.4, 95% confidence interval: 5.8, 18.9). Persons with guns in the home were also more likely to have died from suicide committed with a firearm than from one committed by using a different method (adjusted odds ratio = 31.1, 95% confidence interval: 19.5, 49.6). Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.

  • More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows
    quote:
    Also in 2015 a combined analysis of 15 different studies found that people who had access to firearms at home were nearly twice as likely to be murdered as people who did not.

Regarding guns outside the home:

  • More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows

    quote:
    In a 2015 study using data from the FBI and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, for example, researchers at Boston Children's Hospital and Harvard University reported that firearm assaults were 6.8 times more common in the states with the most guns versus those with the least.

  • The Myth of the Good Guy With a Gun:

    quote:
    A study from October 2013 analyzed data from 27 developed nations to examine the impact of firearm prevalence on the mortality rate. It found an extremely strong direct relationship between the number of firearms and firearm deaths. The paper concludes: “The current study debunks the widely quoted hypothesis that guns make a nation safer.” This finding is bolstered by several previous studies that have revealed a significant link between gun ownership and firearm-related deaths. This international comparison is especially harrowing for women and children, who die from gun violence in America at far higher rates than in other countries.

  • Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault

    This study has the most relevance for the gun nuts here bragging about open carry. This is from the abstract:

    quote:
    Results. After adjustment, individuals in possession of a gun were 4.46 (P < .05) times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession. Among gun assaults where the victim had at least some chance to resist, this adjusted odds ratio increased to 5.45 (P < .05).

    Conclusions. On average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault. Although successful defensive gun uses occur each year, the probability of success may be low for civilian gun users in urban areas. Such users should reconsider their possession of guns or, at least, understand that regular possession necessitates careful safety countermeasures.



By the way, in reading through this material I learned that the NRA is opposed to legislation requiring secure gun storage. I assume they're opposed to secure ammunition storage, too.

--Percy


    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 409 of 447 (840883)
10-05-2018 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 391 by Minnemooseus
10-02-2018 11:39 PM


Re: Open carry making you a preferred target?
Hi Moose,

Moose writes:

I think that being an open carry person would somewhat be like wearing a jacket with a bullseye on it.

I only carry open carry when I am in the woods as I carry a 22 this is for snakes.

If you met me on the street you would not know I had a 44 magnum with a 12" barrel on me. When I am not wearing a suit it gets much smaller, a 9mm I can almost hide in my hand.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Minnemooseus, posted 10-02-2018 11:39 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 410 of 447 (840938)
10-05-2018 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by Minnemooseus
10-02-2018 11:28 PM


Re: Rationally able to determine you have become irrational?
Hi Moose,

Moose writes:

What would it take for you to determine that you are no longer rational enough to possess firearms without being a danger to someone?

That is easy to answer. My wife would be the first to tell me then some of my friends would chime in then my doctor would have his say. All that would take place in a very short time.

But my grandfather, his sons, my great uncle all had all their faculties when they were well in their 90's so I got a long time before something goes haywire. Actually the day my grandfather died we went squirrel hunting and he killed 2 which grandmother cooked for his supper. He ate went to bed two hours later grandmother went in and he was already cold. He was 99 and 2 months short of 100.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Minnemooseus, posted 10-02-2018 11:28 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 411 of 447 (840939)
10-05-2018 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Percy
10-04-2018 11:45 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Percy,

Percy writes:

That's what ICANT says he would do.

I did not say that is what I would do.

This is what I said in Message 344.

quote:
Those people are going to exist whether gun ownership is allowed or banned. There will always be a black market. I can get a weapon in Tampa, Fl. in less than 30 minutes, and I am sure that is possible in most cities.

I was simply making a statement of fact as to how easy it would be to get a gun and bad people don't care where they come from.

You could ban guns and even confiscate guns and there would still be millions of guns available.

Besides that you can build a single shot shotgun for about $20, with stuff from your local hardware store.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Percy, posted 10-04-2018 11:45 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by Percy, posted 10-06-2018 10:30 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 421 by Capt Stormfield, posted 10-06-2018 12:51 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 412 of 447 (840941)
10-05-2018 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Tangle
10-03-2018 2:44 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

The question was whether Jesus would approve of you carrying hand guns and knives around in public. Perhaps you could answer that.

Peter had his sword which was the weapon of the day and he had not been forbidden from having it on his person.

So why would He forbid me carrying my guns. There is some really bad people out there with really bad intentions.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2018 2:44 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by Tangle, posted 10-06-2018 2:36 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 413 of 447 (840944)
10-05-2018 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 398 by ringo
10-03-2018 11:33 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

Luke 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Jesus is talking about His going to the cross and dying as a lamb led to the slaughter, for the sins of mankind that had been prophesied, in the old testament.

No place in that verse do I see swords were needed to fulfil prophesy.
Could you point out where that prophesy is.

ringo writes:

He said that the swords were for a (contrived) fullfilment of the prophecy

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 11:33 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by ringo, posted 10-06-2018 12:37 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 414 of 447 (840948)
10-05-2018 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by Percy
10-03-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Percy,

Percy writes:

Obviously the onset of mental illness, despondency, violent anger, decrepitness, drunkenness, carelessness, poor judgment, etc., could occur at any time/place and then extend on into the future.

Well I don't have a mental illness problem.
Nor a despondency problem.
I do not have a problem with violent anger.
I don't have a decrepitess problem other than I am old. Decrepit no I am not infirm.
I don't have a drinking problem other than water and tea.
Training takes care of carelessness and poor judgment.
So there is none of those that will attack me on a moments notice. They could come on over time in which I would be advised of.

Percy writes:

Yes, you are susceptible to all the frailties man is heir to.


I would have to know what you are calling frailties to comment.

Percy writes:

Some can happen in less than a day's time (carelessness, poor judgment, drunkenness), others can occur gradually.

Carelessness and poor judgment happed to those who are unprepared.

Drunkenness can only happen if you bend your elbow and take a drink.

Percy writes:

I think we can assume that your wife is, like yourself and all other people, imperfect.

No my wife is perfect. And she is just as well trained as I am.

Percy writes:

And aren't your weapons locked up in separate boxes?

No my weapons are loaded and in easy reach at any time in the house. If you approach my house from the front or rear I will know you are there before you can reach the door. I will be alerted to your presence and you will be recorded. If I don't know you I will talk to you through a intercom.

But there is only my wife and myself that reside in my house. We do put the guns up when the great grandkids are going to be around
because they have not been raised with guns and taught to respect them.

Percy writes:

But say gun laws change and your guns are taken away. You're saying you'd be willing to replace them on the black market. Scary.

Who is going to take my guns away from me?

If someone was able to get my guns without killing me
I would probably build my own.

Percy writes:

So driven by delusions of shootouts with criminals where you save the day, you're going to make things even worse by obtaining guns by any means necessary, thereby increasing the danger to yourself and those around you.

I don't need any guns I have enough thank you.

Percy writes:

By "those people" I meant all who have such extravagantly elevated opinions of their gun skills that they're willing to place themselves and those around them in greater danger.

Why does the president have men and women around that are well train and armed everywhere he goes?

Do you think he and those around him are in more
danger because they are there?

I have had the same intense training that they have had.

Percy writes:

The vast majority of gun deaths are due to handguns, and that is the primary motivation for banning guns. Semi-automatic weapons involved in mass murders get the bulk of the news space, but they are not responsible for most of the gun deaths.

So the feared assault weapon is not the most dangerous. I agree and the most dangerous is the Saturday night special.

Percy writes:

Are you daft? Of what possible use is a sample size of one? You speculated on what I thought you ought to do, and you were wrong. What I actually think you ought to do is think rationally while considering the facts. That doesn't mean facts about a single individual, namely yourself, but about the statistical information gathered across populations by certain groups, such as the FBI's Crime in the United States.

I get the impression there is at least 21million of us. The only reason you know about me is that I argue with you.

Do you think I talk about these things anywhere else? I don't.

Percy writes:

Ah, I see, you're expressing your love of country when you endanger your fellow citizens by strapping your piece to your hip and strolling about town. I am still struck by the degree to which the religious are attracted to guns and the military.

I don't strap my piece on my hip and go strolling about I conceal carry. Anywhere you see me you would never know I was carrying except in the woods or fields hunting. I always strap on a revolver to use on snakes and I have my shotgun on my shoulder, or at the ready if bird hunting.

Percy I appreciate what this country has provided so that I was able to have the life I have had. Especially giving me the opportunity to have the opportunity to hear the gospel and be able to receive eternal life, not eternal death. Those opportunities came about because of the Constitution that everyone who worked on it but 4 were God fearing men who had pledged their life and fortune so I could have the opportunities I have had. So yes I believe in God and I believe in a strong military to protect us from outside interference.
I can't speak for anyone else, they will have to speak for themselves.

God Bless


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Percy, posted 10-03-2018 12:27 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Percy, posted 10-06-2018 11:40 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 415 of 447 (840950)
10-05-2018 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by Aussie
10-03-2018 12:51 PM


Re: Problem
Hi Aussie,

Aussie writes:

If you speak with such violence now, just imagine all the physical trauma you will be able to inflict when you finally have your powerful glorified body!

You forgot I will not only have a glorified body, I will have a perfect mind also.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Aussie, posted 10-03-2018 12:51 PM Aussie has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 416 of 447 (840955)
10-05-2018 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by Aussie
10-03-2018 12:56 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Aussie,

Aussie writes:

You would have done the same as the rebuked by Jesus Peter, except you would have intentionally inflicted far greater physical trauma. Well done.

And I would have got rebuked just like Peter did. But just think what everybody would have thought when Jesus reached down and picked up the head and set it in place and patted him on the head and said lets go.

The ear did not even register with them.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Aussie, posted 10-03-2018 12:56 PM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by Aussie, posted 10-09-2018 12:40 PM ICANT has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6183
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 417 of 447 (840973)
10-06-2018 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by ICANT
10-05-2018 5:47 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

Peter had his sword which was the weapon of the day and he had not been forbidden from having it on his person.

So why would He forbid me carrying my guns. There is some really bad people out there with really bad intentions.

He told Peter to put his sword away, he taught turning the other cheek and peaceful protest, loving thy neighbour and doing the right thing. Did he carry a sword?

Are you going to answer my question or keep on dodging?

quote:
The question was whether Jesus would approve of you carrying hand guns and knives around in public. Perhaps you could answer that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by ICANT, posted 10-05-2018 5:47 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by ICANT, posted 10-07-2018 1:26 AM Tangle has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17749
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 418 of 447 (840983)
10-06-2018 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by ICANT
10-05-2018 5:41 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

Percy writes:

Hyroglyphx writes:

ICANT writes:

But say gun laws change and your guns are taken away. You're saying you'd be willing to replace them on the black market. Scary.


That's what violent felons would be doing and already do.

That's what ICANT says he would do.

I did not say that is what I would do.

You're being disingenuous. You've declared that if your guns were taken away you'd obtain new ones. Maybe you'd buy them on the black market, maybe you'd make them, who knows. Much of what you claim is your fantasy view of yourself and cannot be trusted.

You could ban guns and even confiscate guns and there would still be millions of guns available.

If guns were banned there would be declining quantities over time.

Besides that you can build a single shot shotgun for about $20, with stuff from your local hardware store.

Yes, just as I said, you'd break the law and somehow get a gun.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by ICANT, posted 10-05-2018 5:41 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17749
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 419 of 447 (840985)
10-06-2018 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by ICANT
10-05-2018 10:26 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

Percy writes:

Obviously the onset of mental illness, despondency, violent anger, decrepitness, drunkenness, carelessness, poor judgment, etc., could occur at any time/place and then extend on into the future.

Well I don't have a mental illness problem.

You're not a mental health professional, and how would a mentally ill person know they were mentally ill anyway.

Nor a despondency problem.

As if you'd admit it here.

I do not have a problem with violent anger.

Says you.

I don't have a decrepitess problem other than I am old. Decrepit no I am not infirm.

So your judgment, coordination and reaction time are as good as when you were 30?

I don't have a drinking problem other than water and tea.

I didn't say you have a drinking problem. I said that because you have access to guns that drink represents an especial risk.

Training takes care of carelessness and poor judgment.

And yet people with training (the police are a good example) exhibit carelessness and poor judgment on a regular basis. You're claiming superman status, just another example of your fantasy view of yourself.

So there is none of those that will attack me on a moments notice. They could come on over time in which I would be advised of.

Many shootings are by people who a) no one suspected would ever do such a thing; b) people suspected could do such a thing but didn't report it; c) someone reported as a danger but they acted normal and respectful when the police investigated.

It is a myth that mental illness and anger issues and so forth are easily recognizable and exhibited to such a degree that a person may be deprived of property or liberty. Psychology is called a soft science, but it should more properly be called a very soft science.

Percy writes:

Yes, you are susceptible to all the frailties man is heir to.


I would have to know what you are calling frailties to comment.

The frailties are the ones I listed and that you responded to.

Percy writes:

Some can happen in less than a day's time (carelessness, poor judgment, drunkenness), others can occur gradually.

Carelessness and poor judgment happen to those who are unprepared.

You said this already, and it's obviously not true. As I said before, the police are trained and prepared, yet they exhibit carelessness and poor judgment all the time. You are not, as you seem to believe, superman.

Drunkenness can only happen if you bend your elbow and take a drink.

Which no doubt you do. Trump also denies ever taking a drink:

Percy writes:

I think we can assume that your wife is, like yourself and all other people, imperfect.

No my wife is perfect. And she is just as well trained as I am.

Your wife is perfect. So not only are you superman, your wife is superwoman? You're living in a fantasy world.

Percy writes:

And aren't your weapons locked up in separate boxes?

No my weapons are loaded and in easy reach at any time in the house. If you approach my house from the front or rear I will know you are there before you can reach the door. I will be alerted to your presence and you will be recorded. If I don't know you I will talk to you through a intercom.

You've made so many fantastical claims that I don't believe this one either.

But there is only my wife and myself that reside in my house. We do put the guns up when the great grandkids are going to be around because they have not been raised with guns and taught to respect them.

And it's impossible that you'd ever forget to hide your guns? It's impossible that the great grandkids could find the guns? It's impossible that the grandkids or kids couldn't find the guns? If they've become angry or despondent or mentally ill how would you know given you don't see them that often?

Percy writes:

But say gun laws change and your guns are taken away. You're saying you'd be willing to replace them on the black market. Scary.

Who is going to take my guns away from me?

How would I know, this hypothetical law doesn't exist at this time, but I assume it would be some group in law enforcement.

If someone was able to get my guns without killing me...

You'd violently oppose law enforcement?

...I would probably build my own.

So if gun possession were illegal, you'd break the law.

Percy writes:

So driven by delusions of shootouts with criminals where you save the day, you're going to make things even worse by obtaining guns by any means necessary, thereby increasing the danger to yourself and those around you.

hat

I don't need any guns I have enough thank you.

You're ignoring the point, which is that you're willing to break the law to obtain guns, and your possession of guns places yourself and those around in greater danger. Your arrogant cockiness and delusional impressions of how safe you are with guns when you don't even follow basic safety rules like locking them up likely increases the danger.

Percy writes:

By "those people" I meant all who have such extravagantly elevated opinions of their gun skills that they're willing to place themselves and those around them in greater danger.

Why does the president have men and women around that are well trained and armed everywhere he goes?

Because unlike your fantasies, the president is an actual target for assassins. See, for example, Gerald Ford's being shot at by Squeaky Fromme and Ronald Reagan's shooting by John Hinckley.

Do you think he and those around him are in more danger because they are there?

If we subtract out the various threats to the president, then yes, he is in greater danger because the agents around him are armed.

I have had the same intense training that they have had.

Training does not remove human beings' imperfect nature.

Percy writes:

The vast majority of gun deaths are due to handguns, and that is the primary motivation for banning guns. Semi-automatic weapons involved in mass murders get the bulk of the news space, but they are not responsible for most of the gun deaths.

So the feared assault weapon is not the most dangerous.

That's not what I said at all. Assault weapons are undoubtedly the most dangerous because they can kill the most people in the shortest period of time. But handguns are more prevalent and kill more people.

I agree and the most dangerous is the Saturday night special.

We don't agree, and there is no such gun as the Saturday night special. It's just a way of referring to cheap easily available handguns. A Saturday night special type of gun in a lockbox is just as safe as a high end gun like a Colt Python or a SVI Tiki.

Percy writes:

Are you daft? Of what possible use is a sample size of one? You speculated on what I thought you ought to do, and you were wrong. What I actually think you ought to do is think rationally while considering the facts. That doesn't mean facts about a single individual, namely yourself, but about the statistical information gathered across populations by certain groups, such as the FBI's Crime in the United States.

I get the impression there is at least 21 million of us. The only reason you know about me is that I argue with you.

The "you" that you describe does not exist. He is a fantasy of your own mind. There are not "at least 21 million" of these creatures of your fantasies, by which you mean the military. And this isn't true in the civilian sphere either, as the over 30,000 gun deaths per year attests.

Do you think I talk about these things anywhere else? I don't.

In that case I think you're describing your fantasies at one too many sites.

Percy writes:

Ah, I see, you're expressing your love of country when you endanger your fellow citizens by strapping your piece to your hip and strolling about town. I am still struck by the degree to which the religious are attracted to guns and the military.

I don't strap my piece on my hip and go strolling about I conceal carry.

Oh. When you piggybacked on Jar's open-carry posts I assumed you were also doing open carry. You are wise to do concealed carry given that open carry seems to place you in greater danger than conceal carry.

You would be even wiser to carry no guns at all because of the danger they represent.

Anywhere you see me you would never know I was carrying except in the woods or fields hunting. I always strap on a revolver to use on snakes and I have my shotgun on my shoulder, or at the ready if bird hunting.

You religious people sure enjoy killing things.

So yes I believe in God and I believe in a strong military to protect us from outside interference.

I think the vast majority of people think we need a strong military for the defense of our nation. What we don't need is a military that attempts to impose our will around the world in places like Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

But you've diverged completely from your original point, which is that the 21 million men in the military agree with you. They don't. Notably they probably think your failure to lock up your weapons is particularly boneheaded.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by ICANT, posted 10-05-2018 10:26 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by ICANT, posted 10-06-2018 8:12 PM Percy has responded
 Message 431 by ICANT, posted 10-08-2018 1:22 AM Percy has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15414
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 420 of 447 (840994)
10-06-2018 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by ICANT
10-05-2018 6:37 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

No place in that verse do I see swords were needed to fulfil prophesy.
Could you point out where that prophesy is.


It's Prophecy 101.
quote:
Luke 22:36-37 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Buying swords was for the purpose of fulfilling the prophecy that the Messiah would be "reckoned among the transgressors":
quote:
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah also has the standard Messianic prophecies that are often attributed to Jesus:
verse 3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief
verse 5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities
etc.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by ICANT, posted 10-05-2018 6:37 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 382
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 421 of 447 (840996)
10-06-2018 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by ICANT
10-05-2018 5:41 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Besides that you can build a single shot shotgun for about $20, with stuff from your local hardware store.

And that, I think, is kind of the general idea. Make sure that only desperate goofballs have guns, and that those guns are single-shot home brew specials that are singularly ineffective for mass killing.

You could sit in the dark with your home-built single-shot (or hey, go nuts and make a double barrel), Walter Mittying to your heart's content as you eyed the security cams and waited for the Anti-Christ.

You paint an appealing scenario, and a much safer one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by ICANT, posted 10-05-2018 5:41 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by ICANT, posted 10-07-2018 1:34 AM Capt Stormfield has responded

  
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