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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 452 of 1184 (841941)
10-24-2018 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 450 by ICANT
10-23-2018 11:05 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
In a country with the population of the US, don't you find the idea that there is only one burglary every 20 seconds incredibly heartening? The chances of it happening in a given household, at those rates, are pretty tiny.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by ICANT, posted 10-23-2018 11:05 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by ICANT, posted 10-24-2018 1:43 PM Tusko has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 453 of 1184 (841965)
10-24-2018 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by Tusko
10-24-2018 6:13 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Tusko,
Tusko writes:
In a country with the population of the US, don't you find the idea that there is only one burglary every 20 seconds incredibly heartening? The chances of it happening in a given household, at those rates, are pretty tiny.
Actually I am appaled at the thought of one burglary every 20 seconds taking place anywhere.
When I was growing up our front door had a cord that went through the door hanging down on the outside on the inside there was a 2' piece of 1x4 fastened to the door at the center of the door. The cord was attached to this board close to the edge of the door. There was a piece on the door frame fixed so the board rested in it. This was the locked position. But you could open the door from the outside so it was not a lock but just a latch.
In the area I lived in we never had any burglaries. If you needed something your neighbor had you just asked for it, or to borrow it.
In other words if everyone believed as I do and practiced living a life like I do there would not have to be locks on anything even the banks. Obama described me pretty well when he made his comments about clinging to their guns and religion.
I believe in God and live my life preparing for the moment I meet Him face to face and give an account of the time, talent and opportunities He has given to me during my 79 years here on earth.
Since I am faced with that meeting I try to live my life obeying the 2 commandments He gave to me when He said:
quote:
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
So I am to love God above all else, and I am supposed to love you just as much as I love myself.
If everybody was to do that the world would be a much better place in which to live and we would not be having this discussion about gun control.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Tusko, posted 10-24-2018 6:13 AM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by ringo, posted 10-24-2018 1:49 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 468 by Tusko, posted 10-25-2018 4:40 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 472 by Percy, posted 10-25-2018 10:19 AM ICANT has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 454 of 1184 (841967)
10-24-2018 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by ICANT
10-24-2018 1:43 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:
So I am to love God above all else, and I am supposed to love you just as much as I love myself.
So, "loving your neighbour as yourself," means being prepared to shoot him if he steps out of line?
Edited by ringo, : fixed quote

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by ICANT, posted 10-24-2018 1:43 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by Phat, posted 10-24-2018 1:55 PM ringo has replied
 Message 457 by ICANT, posted 10-24-2018 3:26 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 455 of 1184 (841968)
10-24-2018 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by ringo
10-24-2018 1:49 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Sometimes I think that you purposefully get our names wrong. Time to confess.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by ringo, posted 10-24-2018 1:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by ringo, posted 10-24-2018 1:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 456 of 1184 (841969)
10-24-2018 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by Phat
10-24-2018 1:55 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Phat writes:
Sometimes I think that you purposefully get our names wrong. Time to confess.
You give me too much credit.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Phat, posted 10-24-2018 1:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 457 of 1184 (841976)
10-24-2018 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by ringo
10-24-2018 1:49 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
So, "loving your neighbour as yourself," means being prepared to shoot him if he steps out of line?
When it comes to the point my neighbor is fixing to harm me or my wife, yes I would blow his/her brains out.
There is nothing about those two commandments that tells me I have to let my neighbor kill or harm me or my wife.
My mind is conditioned that when I would see a weapon of any kind that is being positioned to bring harm to me or anyone around me reflexes would take over without even thinking as my actions would be automatic. I know you don't understand that but I can't help you there.
Remember I would not shoot anyone offensively but in defense it will work automatically.
That is the reason a person pulling a phone out of his/her pocket when standing before a policeman with a revolver in hand shouting orders or reaching for their back pocket usually end up dead. If the policeman has to think he is usually the one that ends up dead.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by ringo, posted 10-24-2018 1:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by ringo, posted 10-24-2018 3:39 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 459 by Straggler, posted 10-24-2018 5:10 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 475 by Percy, posted 10-25-2018 12:32 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 513 by Aussie, posted 10-26-2018 2:05 PM ICANT has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 458 of 1184 (841977)
10-24-2018 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by ICANT
10-24-2018 3:26 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:
There is nothing about those two commandments that tells me I have to let my neighbor kill or harm me or my wife.
Loving your neighbour as yourself is pretty clear: don't treat your neighbour better than yourself. So yes, harming your neighbour is exactly what the commandment is about.
ICANT writes:
My mind is conditioned that when I would see a weapon of any kind that is being positioned to bring harm to me or anyone around me reflexes would take over without even thinking as my actions would be automatic.
Again, that's the exact opposite of what the commandment says: Don't go with your instincts; do what's right.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by ICANT, posted 10-24-2018 3:26 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by ICANT, posted 10-24-2018 9:09 PM ringo has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 459 of 1184 (841981)
10-24-2018 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by ICANT
10-24-2018 3:26 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
You sound like an absolute menace to society. One mistake on your part in identifying a weapon and your reflexes kick into action to blow someone’s brains out. You guys are just bonkers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by ICANT, posted 10-24-2018 3:26 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by ICANT, posted 10-24-2018 9:29 PM Straggler has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 460 of 1184 (841982)
10-24-2018 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by ICANT
10-23-2018 11:05 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:
Percy writes:
You're primed and loaded and completely missing the point, half shot. Neither of us worries about "somebody kicking in my door," but you're the one placing yourself in greater danger by having firearms around the house, particularly that are loaded and not locked up.
quote:
According to the FBI, the U.S. Department of Justice, and other reputable sources, in the United States:
One property crime happens every 4 seconds.
One burglary occurs every 20 seconds.
etc...
Page not found - NationSearch
You seem unable to connect this crime information to any conclusions. No one's arguing about crime rates, but since you raise the subject of crime, crime has been decreasing across the country for years:
The point that you've been ignoring and that you continue to ignore, a point supported by evidence cited earlier, is that you, your family, and your friends are in more danger from the gun you own than from guns wielded by criminals.
quote:
Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed. Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.
This is a quote from a study ordered done by Obama. You can find the report for sale at Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence |The National Academies Press.
It was funded by the National Academy of Sciences and both the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the CDC Foundation.
You better take care there, fella - it's easy to get ripped off on the web. I hope you didn't already pay for the report, because it's available online at no cost at Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence.
You chopped off the rest of the paragraph, which makes clear the claim isn't based on law enforcement statistics.
The claim is based on survey results. This means the information is from people responding primarily about unreported and unverifiable incidents. Also, the survey results are conflicting, varying across a range of 500%, as your next quote mentions, so let's get to that:
quote:
How many home invasions were stopped by guns?
The government doesn't put a lot of emphasis on defensive gun use. Estimates show that 500,000 to 3 million defensive gun uses occur each year.
23 Home Invasion Statistics You Should Be Afraid Of
Notice it says estimates, not statistics. And notice the 500% range of the estimates that I've already mentioned. This is not only useless as information, even if there were accurate law enforcement figures it would still be useless as support for your position. No one doubts that criminals can be defended against by guns. The problem for you is that your guns are more likely to be used against yourself, family or friends than against criminals.
Percy writes:
Each year a shocking 2.5 million victims use a gun to scare their offender...
This would be just incredible if true. You've got 2/3 of homeowners scaring off their offenders with guns when only 1/3 of households have guns. Are burglars somehow drawn to households with guns?
Do you ever put your brain in gear before you speak/type?
I'm only ragging on you because you keep making hairbrained statements, like that you're superhuman or that Americans are more like the Taliban than the British. If you're going to be absurd about so many things then how can we trust anything you say, such as that you don't drink - in fact, especially that you don't drink, since drinking would explain all the silly claims.
I'll explain again, in slightly greater detail this time:
If 3.7 million households are broken into each year (that's your figure from Message 448), and if 2.5 million victims use a gun to scare away the offender (also your figure from the same message), then for 2/3 (=2.5/3.7) of household break-ins the criminals are being scared off by guns when only 1/3 of households have guns (the 1/3 figure can be found in many places, for instance here, which gives the figure as 31% for 2014 and shrinking).
It's impossible that for 2/3 of household break-ins that the criminals are being scared off by guns if only 1/3 of households have guns. You do understand that, don't you? The only way that would be possible is if criminals were targeting households with guns, which is absurd, which is why I mentioned it in the hope that it would help you see how nonsensical your figures are.
I'll ignore the figures you cited next since you were trying to rebut something you didn't yet understand.
Crime victims are not necessarily always victims of home invasions or burglaries. Many of those defensive uses of weapons take place other than in the home.
You cited figures for household break-ins, so I responded about household break-ins. If you wanted to make your point using some other kind of crime then you should have written about that other kind of crime, not household break-ins. Is this difficult for you to understand?
But you can talk about any kind of crime you like, it won't change the fact that a gun in the home increases the danger to yourself, your family, and your friends. Or are you going to claim to be superhuman again?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by ICANT, posted 10-23-2018 11:05 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 461 of 1184 (841983)
10-24-2018 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by ICANT
10-23-2018 11:10 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:
Percy writes:
People would gradually regain their sanity and find safer hobbies,
Guns for me is not a hobby.
Hobby, sport, an object in a fantasy world, call it what you will.
It is a Constitutional right preserved for me by our founding fathers.
The 2nd amendment is an anachronism, like the 3/5 rule.
As long as I have my guns I can eat.
I've already said I don't have anything against hunting rifles. We've been talking about handguns. As you make obvious, many people's attachment to their firearms is emotional and rather than coolly rational.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Spelling correction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by ICANT, posted 10-23-2018 11:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by ICANT, posted 10-24-2018 9:39 PM Percy has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 462 of 1184 (841985)
10-24-2018 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 458 by ringo
10-24-2018 3:39 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi ringo
ringo writes:
Don't go with your instincts; do what's right.
So me not blowing his/her brains out and allowing him to kill me or worse wound me incapacitating me for the rest of my life, would be the right thing to do in your sight.
And no I don't act by instinct. I was trained in the military by our finest to the point that there is a reaction for every event in combat and self preservation. I have continued that training each year since my discharge. So I am trained to react to events without thinking that is not instinct as it would be much slower.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by ringo, posted 10-24-2018 3:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by ringo, posted 10-25-2018 11:51 AM ICANT has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 463 of 1184 (841987)
10-24-2018 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by Percy
10-22-2018 9:15 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
you're the one placing yourself in greater danger by having firearms around the house, particularly that are loaded and not locked up.
Percy thinks of guns in the same manner someone would think of a timebomb with the world's most sensitive hair-trigger... at any given second, it's gonna go off.
The US has a greater suicide rate than the UK because guns are a more lethal means of suicide than any other means, and the US has far more guns. Check out this chart of many countries with both lower and higher suicide rates than the US. Look at the much higher proportion of suicide by gun in the US as compared to all other countries
LOL, so???? How is that an argument against guns? All that means is that in the absence of guns, determined suicidal people find other ways of killing themselves. That would literally be like finding the nation with the highest rate of suicide by overdose and then complaining about the evils of modern medicine. Ludicrous argument.
Guns are the best method for impulsive suicides. Other means require more preparation and/or planning, providing opportunity for changing one's mind.
Studies show that females rarely use a gun because they care about what they look like in death. They tend to choose overdose, slit wrists, or any method that reduces trauma for this reason. Men tend to use guns, high falls, or any means that's going to get the job done with little to no chance of suffering. In any event, I fail to see how suicide methods are an argument against guns.
On the other side of the ledger, the more urban states (presumably with more crooks and gangs) that have fewer gun owners also have fewer gun deaths, like New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Connecticut and California.
Not surprising, since economic health almost always has a causal relationship with crime rates.
Surely you're not suggesting that liberals chipped away at Chicago's gun laws. Conservatives have little power in Chicago, not zero power.
I think the point he's making is that in cities instituting liberal policies have little effect on violent crime. Kind of like the whole "gun free zone" area being filled with guns. It's difficult to legally purchase a firearm in places like Chicago and yet their rates of homicide by gun is off the charts... which means those people are obtaining illegal arms. Not surprising. Mexico and Russia have incredibly strict gun control and none of that translates into their exorbitant rates of violence in any appreciable manner.
I don't want to eliminate all gun ownership, just most. Hunting rifles are okay. Handguns and assault rifles are not.
What's the difference? Just so you know, "assault rifles" are basically no different than a hunting rifle, except to say that they are less powerful on account of a much smaller caliber. And there is already a weapons ban on automatic rifles, so it seems specious to be accepting of one but not the other.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Percy, posted 10-22-2018 9:15 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by Straggler, posted 10-25-2018 4:55 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 473 by Percy, posted 10-25-2018 11:33 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 464 of 1184 (841988)
10-24-2018 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 459 by Straggler
10-24-2018 5:10 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
You sound like an absolute menace to society.
A menace to society is someone or something that threatens to cause evil, harm, injury, etc.; a threat:
I have never threatened anyone, caused harm or injury to anyone nor have I ever caused any evil.
But because I am prepared if I meet a menace to society to protect myself from such a person you say I am that menace.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Straggler, posted 10-24-2018 5:10 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by Straggler, posted 10-25-2018 2:39 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 465 of 1184 (841989)
10-24-2018 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by Percy
10-24-2018 8:22 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
I've already said I don't have anything against hunting rifles. We've been talking about handguns.
I squirrel hunt with a 22 pistol.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Percy, posted 10-24-2018 8:22 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by Percy, posted 10-25-2018 4:02 PM ICANT has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 466 of 1184 (841990)
10-25-2018 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 464 by ICANT
10-24-2018 9:29 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Yes. One error of judgement on your part and it’s head blowing time.
That qualifies you as a menace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by ICANT, posted 10-24-2018 9:29 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by Tangle, posted 10-25-2018 2:51 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 471 by ICANT, posted 10-25-2018 10:06 AM Straggler has replied

  
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