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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6055
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 572 of 609 (842688)
11-05-2018 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 552 by Percy
11-02-2018 6:25 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Percy,

Percy writes:

You just never give up saying incredibly stupid things.

If you will look at your chart below this statement you will see a total kill number of 243.

You will see a total number injured of 631.

There are many weapons that could have been used and the dead number would have been much greater. Depending on the shooter there could have been in the range of 500 or even 600 dead.

That is the reason I classify the AR15 as a toy. Not that it can't sling a lot of lead.

A slingshot with pre-WW2 red rubber and broke cast iron is pretty good for killing squirrels. It just does not have the killing power of a 22 rifle. The AR15 would classify as the slingshot compared to the 22 rifle when compared to many weapons that are available.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by Percy, posted 11-02-2018 6:25 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by Percy, posted 11-05-2018 2:36 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2795
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 573 of 609 (842690)
11-05-2018 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 571 by ICANT
11-05-2018 9:54 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
All I was trying to do was to show that government rules do not stop the activities of people in the use of autos or guns.

Well they do stop drivers without licences.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 9:54 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 575 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 11:24 AM frako has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15569
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 574 of 609 (842694)
11-05-2018 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 567 by ICANT
11-05-2018 12:44 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

You have your opinion of what the AR15 is and I have my opinion.


It is not an opinion that an AR15 is a gun. It is a fact.

You said that guns are tools. Therefore an AR15 is a tool. That is logic.

ICANT writes:

I don't play with dangerous toys....


You have made it clear in this thread that a gun in your hands is dangerous.

ICANT writes:

But those that do have a constitutional right to do so.


Two hundred years ago, the constitution allowed you to own slaves. Decent people didn't do it just because they could get away with it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 567 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 12:44 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 1:05 PM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6055
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 575 of 609 (842695)
11-05-2018 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by frako
11-05-2018 10:54 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi frako,

frako writes:

Well they do stop drivers without licences.

A law does not stop anybody from doing anything.
It is against the law to kill people. Does that stop people from killing?
It is against the law to drive without a license. Does that stop people from driving without a license?

Maybe where you live laws stop people from being people and doing whatever they want to do. But where I live laws are just an inconvenience.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by frako, posted 11-05-2018 10:54 AM frako has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2018 12:25 PM ICANT has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6233
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 576 of 609 (842697)
11-05-2018 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 575 by ICANT
11-05-2018 11:24 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

A law does not stop anybody from doing anything.
It is against the law to kill people. Does that stop people from killing?
It is against the law to drive without a license. Does that stop people from driving without a license?

I suppose there must be creationists that aren't just plain stupid, but you wouldn't know it from reading the stuff they write here.

The law doesn't stop anybody doing anything, it has to be backed by a criminal justice system - ie a police force that will arrest people who shoot other people, a prosecution service that will prosecute defendants, a court system that will try and convict a criminal and a penal service that will punish them.

Having all that prevents most people committing crimes; it doesn't prevent all crime because people can be greedy, angry, drunk, drugged, mean, calculating and just plain stupid. It's called deterrence and it works.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 575 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 11:24 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 578 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 1:19 PM Tangle has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6055
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 577 of 609 (842698)
11-05-2018 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by ringo
11-05-2018 11:20 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

You have made it clear in this thread that a gun in your hands is dangerous.

It is only dangerous to animals if I am hunting for them for meat.
It is only dangerous to humans if they are trying to harm or kill me or someone in my presence.

Other than that it is just like the pen I carry in my shirt pocket, a tool to be used when necessary.

ringo writes:

Two hundred years ago, the constitution allowed you to own slaves. Decent people didn't do it just because they could get away with it.

Sure they did and most of them were not in the political party of Lincoln.

A little known fact, in 1650 Anthony Johnson who was a “free negro” who owned a 250-acre farm in Virginia during the 1650s, with five indentured servants under contract to him. One of them, a black man named John Casor, claimed that his term of service had expired years earlier and Johnson was holding him illegally. In 1654, a civil court found that Johnson in fact owned Casor’s services for life, an outcome historian R Halliburton Jr. calls “one of the first known legal sanctions of slavery — other than as a punishment for crime.”

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by ringo, posted 11-05-2018 11:20 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by ringo, posted 11-05-2018 1:21 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6055
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 578 of 609 (842699)
11-05-2018 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by Tangle
11-05-2018 12:25 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

It's called deterrence and it works.

I didn't say that laws did not deter honest people from doing bad things.

I did say: "A law does not stop anybody from doing anything."

People break all kinds of laws and usually justify their action by blaming some event or person for their actions.

There is one lawmaker that if you break His laws you will be brought to justice and you will pay for the rest of eternity. I know you don't believe that but that is your problem.

People do what they choose to do regardless of what the law says.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2018 12:25 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2018 1:31 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15569
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 579 of 609 (842700)
11-05-2018 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by ICANT
11-05-2018 1:05 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

It is only dangerous to animals if I am hunting for them for meat.
It is only dangerous to humans if they are trying to harm or kill me or someone in my presence.


Unless the wespon is locked up and the ammunition is locked up separately, it is never safe. Thinking a weapon is "safe" is the first safety violation.

ICANT writes:

Sure they did and most of them were not in the political party of Lincoln.


Irrelevant. The point is that they did what they did because it was legal - with no consideration of whether it was morally right. That's your stated position on gun ownership.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 1:05 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 586 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 10:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17869
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 580 of 609 (842701)
11-05-2018 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by ICANT
11-05-2018 9:37 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

Percy writes:

Guns are toys to you gun nuts.

Percy quit jumping to conclusions.

I'm not jumping to conclusions. You and Jar and Hyroglyphx have made clear that guns are your toys.

I said an AR15 to me was a toy.

Yes, I know you did. And I replied about guns in general: "Guns are toys to you gun nuts." Guns have no legitimate civilian purpose, except hunting for food (not sport).

That means it would be something to go out in the woods and shoot up a bunch of trees with.

Some people shoot trees for fun, other people pretend that threats might appear at their door at any moment and so they prepare their guns and peepholes and early detection systems and blow away the poor UPS delivery guy.

Problem is you can't eat trees and I don't shoot things I can't eat.

So you don't shoot things you can't eat, huh. So you eat the targets from the practice range?

The only exception to that is if someone was trying to kill me.

Glad to hear you won't turn into a cannibal when the criminal hordes appear on your doorstep.

There are weapons that are a lot more dangerous than an AR15. It just happens that the AR15 is the one the looney's choose to use.

The loonies are anyone who thinks they need a weapon.

Percy writes:

homicide and suicide

Most homicide's and suicides are performed with a pistol. Which is much more efficient than a AR15 would be. You could really hurt yourself with a AR15 without killing yourself.

If you'd bothered to read what I said instead of just excerpting three words from a short paragraph, you'd see I was referring to guns in general, not the AR-15.

Percy writes:

(which, of course, excludes hunting rifles).

The AR15 is classified as a rifle and can be used for hunting. But I would not recommend it for that purpose. In fact I would not recommend it for any purpose other than to show off.

Again, you should read what you're replying to. The paragraph was about guns in general.

Percy writes:

I can only guess, since you haven't responded to my Message 551 and Message 552, that you are ignoring me.

Percy it is hard to have a conversation with somebody that is continually calling you a liar, a fool, and an idiot by their insinuations.

It is equally hard to have a conversation with someone who is continually lying and saying foolish and idiotic things. It is, hopefully, within your power to begin making sense, though I've read ahead in the thread and seen that if you have the ability to make sense you haven't employed it.

Percy writes:

You seem to believe gun registration important since you mentioned your belief that any gun purchased at a gun shop is automatically registered,

I went to a gun show Saturday. They had 25 people that were conducting background checks on people. The people would fill out the papers and then wait for the results to came back. If they cleared the background check they were allowed to purchase the weapon they were trying to buy. If they failed the background check they were not allow to purchase the weapon. By law these papers must be destroyed within 24 hours.

So you're in favor of background checks for all gun purchases? Most states do not require background checks for gun purchases at gun shows. What state do you live in?

It is against the law for a state of Federal gun registry to be kept.

Don't you think gun registries would be very helpful in crime solving?

I would not be in favor of a State or Federal gun registry being kept as that could then be used to confiscate weapons.

So the only reason you mentioned registrations at gun stores is because you know they're useless because it scatters gun registrations all over hell.

I know you trust our government to do things in our best interest.

You know I believe Trump's a malevolent self-serving racist misogynistic autocratic force for evil, so why would you think that? I think we should elect competent trustworthy people who have the best interests of the country at heart. When such people are in charge then government can be an overwhelming force for good.

I don't trust politicians any further than I can throw them. They go to Washington with good intentions and after a few years they are just as corrupt as those that have been there 40 years.

Too often this is true.

I could trust them a lot more if they went to Washington served one term being paid the same as an enlisted man in the army and then going back to their regular life.

A more informed electorate would help, too. Trump tells the people at his rallies that (for example, there are a wide range of topics Trump lies about to choose from) Democrats want open borders and they believe him.

There has been over 5 billion dollars spent on the mid-term election. That money was spent expecting a ROI. (return on investment)

In politics there is a strong correlation between money and winning. It turns out advertising isn't especially effective, that it's more that the candidate with the best chance of winning tends to attract the most money. The rich are especially keen about making office holders aware they've donated significantly to the campaign.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 9:37 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 591 by ICANT, posted 11-06-2018 10:52 AM Percy has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6233
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 581 of 609 (842702)
11-05-2018 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 578 by ICANT
11-05-2018 1:19 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

I didn't say that laws did not deter honest people from doing bad things.

I think I'm going to have to leave this forum, I'm having great difficulty coping with the degree of irrationality and sheer stupidity you guys spout whilst just knowing that you're right.

Do tell, why would an 'honest' person need to be deterred?

When you've tortured your way out of that one, tell me what would happen if we removed all laws.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 1:19 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 588 by marc9000, posted 11-06-2018 7:26 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 589 by Phat, posted 11-06-2018 9:21 AM Tangle has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17869
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 582 of 609 (842703)
11-05-2018 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 571 by ICANT
11-05-2018 9:54 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

Percy writes:

Is there anyone, not just in this thread but anywhere in the world, who has claimed that seat belts prevent motor vehicle accidents? No, of course not. Then why are you saying such a silly thing?

Straggler had put forth seat belts as a regulation on automobiles.

Insinuating that guns have no regulations.

Actually Straggler was quite specific that the context was motor vehicle safety. Can you cite any regulations making guns safer? I mean for the people on the business end of the gun, of course.

Cars are to be built to certain specifications and so are guns.
The specifications of the car will not stop it from having a wreck.

Hmmm, suddenly you seem to understand the context was motor vehicle safety. Interesting.

Improved car design has had a significant impact on motor vehicle safety. Over the years regulations specifying car safety requirements have become more and more stringent, making cars increasingly safe over the years with safety features like seat belts, airbags, passenger compartment cages, collision absorbing bumpers and frames, deflection mechanisms so the engine doesn't end up in the front seat, etc. Manufacturers have begun equipping some cars with crash avoidance systems.

Guns have gone in the opposite direction and become increasingly deadly over the years. Check this out:

The specifications of the gun will not stop it from being used to kill someone.

Oh, come on. A .22 with normal bullets is much less deadly than a .357 magnum with hollow points. From an ammo site:

quote:
357 magnum jacketed hollow point ammo is a great choice for folks that need a powerful self-defense round. Loaded with a hollow point bullet that is designed to expand upon contact with your target, these rounds are engineered to deliver the most amount of damage possible.

See that: "engineered to deliver the most amount of damage possible." There is no doubt that firearms have become increasingly deadly over the years. Regulation is necessary to abate this trend.

The human involved is the problem with both causing over 80,000 deaths per year in the US.

As shown above, motor vehicle death rates are falling, gun death rates are rising.

All I was trying to do was to show that government rules do not stop the activities of people in the use of autos or guns.

Well that's a silly thing to say. Of course government regulations don't stop anyone's actions, and not just for cars and guns, but for anything. What government regulations can do is make injury and death less likely, for instance (and as already explained in messages you ignored) by mandating training, licensing, maintenance and storage requirements, etc.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 9:54 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17869
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 583 of 609 (842706)
11-05-2018 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by ICANT
11-05-2018 10:24 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:

Percy writes:

You just never give up saying incredibly stupid things.

If you will look at your chart below this statement you will see a total kill number of 243.

There is no chart below your statement. Competent as ever, I see. I'll comment on those things I can figure out.

You will see a total number injured of 631.

There are many weapons that could have been used and the dead number would have been much greater. Depending on the shooter there could have been in the range of 500 or even 600 dead.

That is the reason I classify the AR15 as a toy. Not that it can't sling a lot of lead.

Okay, I see, you're making the point that there are deadlier weapons than the AR-15, that in fact it is so puny as an instrument of death that it should be considered a toy. Tell you what. Let's put you and a five-year old in a room and give the five-year old a loaded AR-15 with a nice light trigger to play with. Are you game?

If you're going to say stupid things then you can't refuse to reply using the excuse that someone called you stupid. When you're stupid then own it, and right now you're being incredibly stupid. The easiest way to get out from under a stupid comment is just to say, "Oops, sorry." Continuing this pointless stupid argument that the AR-15 is a toy is just, well, stupid, especially since DrJones* mentioned over a week ago that you can chamber an AR-15 up to larger calibers like a .45.

Just to help you out making the right decision, here again for your edification and enjoyment is the table of mass shootings performed with an AR-15 or equivalent:

IncidentYearKilledInjured
Pittsburgh Synagogue2018117
Stoneman Douglas High School20181717
Las Vegas201759422
Sutherland Springs Church20172720
Orlando Nightclub20165053
San Bernardino20151624
Umpqua Community College2015108
Washington Navy Yard2013138
Sandy Hook Elementary2012282
Aurora20121270

Moving on:

A slingshot with pre-WW2 red rubber and broke cast iron is pretty good for killing squirrels. It just does not have the killing power of a 22 rifle. The AR15 would classify as the slingshot compared to the 22 rifle when compared to many weapons that are available.

Still stupid.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Didn't mean to hit "Submit", was mostly done, just made a few minor edits.

Edited by Percy, : Minor edit.

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 10:24 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17869
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 584 of 609 (842710)
11-05-2018 9:02 PM


Gun Nuts on the Border
I had to choose whether to post this under the Trump Presidency thread or the Gun Nut thread, and I decided to post it here in the Gun Nut thread. Those of you on or near our southern border, be forewarned: gun nuts are either there or on the way, as reported here: Armed militia groups head to the border, sparking military concerns

Why, you might ask, are militia groups heading for our southern border? Because our idiot president has been sounding the alarm about families peacefully approaching our border to apply for political asylum. Oh, pardon me, I didn't get that right. I meant hordes of rampaging MS13 members and tough hombres with drugs, guns, leprosy and gonorrhea threatening to overrun our borders to take our jobs, sell drugs, murder our men, rape our women, and spread disease. Excerpts:

quote:
Armed bands of civilian militia members are traveling to the southern U.S. border, where President Donald Trump has ordered thousands of active-duty troops to rebuff the approaching migrant caravan.

About “200 unregulated armed militia members [are] currently operating along the southwest border,“ says a planning document for Army commanders...” pointing out “reported incidents of unregulated militias stealing National Guard equipment during deployments.”

The U.S. Border Patrol late last month warned landowners in Texas to expect “possible armed civilians” to come onto their property because of the caravan, The Associated Press reported.


Gee, it all sounds just peachy! I just feel so safe now knowing these wingnuts are there. Me, I think the true threat is Canada, which is taking advantage of the southern move of US troops to secretly mass on our northern border.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by Coragyps, posted 11-05-2018 10:18 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5351
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 585 of 609 (842711)
11-05-2018 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by Percy
11-05-2018 9:02 PM


Re: Gun Nuts on the Border
Percy, you forgot the smallpox. Some RW preacher was warning us about these same unwashed hordes bringing smallpox. He wasn’t real clear on where they had found any, but watch out!!! It’s only been exterminated for about forty years now.

And the US military has been warned to watch out for militiamen stealing weapons and supplies from them - True Patriots are apparently prone to do that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by Percy, posted 11-05-2018 9:02 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6055
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 586 of 609 (842712)
11-05-2018 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 579 by ringo
11-05-2018 1:21 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi ringo

ringo writes:


Unless the wespon is locked up and the ammunition is locked up separately, it is never safe.

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. That is a good thing about America.

ringo writes:

That's your stated position on gun ownership.

They did change the constitution didn't they.
You don't like the law change it. But that is a pretty high mountain to climb. It only takes 13 states to defeat any such amendment.

I believe I have a constitutional right to own and bear arms.
I do not apologize for my position. In 72 years of owning and using guns I have never harmed anyone by my owning or carrying my weapons.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by ringo, posted 11-05-2018 1:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by Pressie, posted 11-06-2018 4:11 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 595 by ringo, posted 11-07-2018 11:03 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
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