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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
vimesey
Member
Posts: 907
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 602 of 662 (842848)
11-09-2018 8:15 AM


What happens in the rest of the world.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-46147581

This is a link to a story of how a terrorist in Melbourne has been killed by police after stabbing three people - one, regrettably, fatally.

Of course, had he had free and easy access to semi-automatic weapons, he wouldn't have killed anywhere near so many as 1.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

Replies to this message:
 Message 604 by Phat, posted 11-09-2018 9:10 AM vimesey has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17968
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 603 of 662 (842849)
11-09-2018 8:47 AM


"Good Guy With a Gun" Argument Shot Down by Events
As mass shootings pile up we keep hearing the common argument from the gun nut lobby about a good guy with a gun. But events show that confronting a gunman is highly risky and dangerous, for law enforcement and armed civilians alike. The shooter has a huge advantage. He can shoot at anything that moves, and often times his goal is suicide, either at his own hands or through armed confrontation.

Responders, on the other hand, must take great care to shoot only the shooter while insuring their own safety as much as possible and being careful not to hit bystanders. Officers are shot in one third of encounters with an active gunman.

The other conclusion is that the open carry idiots out there are just asking to get shot if by chance they should happen upon a mass shooting. How many have a filled 30-round clip in their gun like the Thousand Oaks shooter - kind of makes the gun hard to fit in a holster, and I'll bet their pants would end up down around their ankles a lot.

Here are some comments and excerpts from today's Washington Post article, Guard, officer killed in the nation’s latest mass shooting, stoking debate about active-shooter defenses:

The unarmed guard outside the Borderline Bar and Grill was the first to be killed. A policeman who charged in while the firing was ongoing was killed.

At the recent Synagogue shooting in Pittsburgh four policemen were shot.

When politicians respond to mass shootings by saying things like, "It's important to find a way to remove the politics" (Jason Villabla, R-TX), what they really mean is, "Let's not mention gun control."

In response to claims by people like Trump and the NRA and placing armed guards all over, experts say there is little evidence that armed guards have much effect. "The Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center at Texas State University found that just 4 percent of 106 mass shootings it analyzed between 2000 and 2015 ended with the shooter being shot before police arrived on the scene."

quote:
“A very high percentage of these attackers are suicidal, so sometimes when they are shot and killed, that’s their desired outcome,” said Adam Lankford, a criminology professor at the University of Alabama. “The idea that he is going to be scared away by an armed security guard just doesn’t compute.”

Jaclyn Schildkraut, an associate professor of criminal justice at the State University of New York at Oswego, said taking down a shooter with a firearm is far more difficult than many realize. She pointed to a RAND Center of Quality Policing study that found New York City police officers hit their target in gunfights just 18 percent of the time.


--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by Tangle, posted 11-09-2018 10:57 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11576
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 604 of 662 (842851)
11-09-2018 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 602 by vimesey
11-09-2018 8:15 AM


Re: What happens in the rest of the world.
The BBC has quite a few interesting articles about guns and gun control.
To wit:
What If All Guns Disappeared? Take the politics out of it. By the numbers, what would we gain – and lose – if all firearms suddenly were wiped off the face of the planet?

Is There A Link Between Mass Shootings And Mental Illness? That assumption is further reinforced each time a new mass shooting takes place, inevitably followed by calls for mental healthcare reform. But what does the evidence say about the relationship between mass shooters and mental illness? Are these acts of violence really a mental health problem?

I like the BBC. They have well-written articles.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by vimesey, posted 11-09-2018 8:15 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by vimesey, posted 11-09-2018 9:18 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 907
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 605 of 662 (842852)
11-09-2018 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 604 by Phat
11-09-2018 9:10 AM


Re: What happens in the rest of the world.
I like the BBC. They have well-written articles.

Absolutely. And (for my money) fairly well balanced.

They do get attacked by the alt-right for not being sufficiently bigoted and fascist, but I can get past that.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by Phat, posted 11-09-2018 9:10 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 606 of 662 (842861)
11-09-2018 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 603 by Percy
11-09-2018 8:47 AM


Re: "Good Guy With a Gun" Argument Shot Down by Events
Percy writes:

As mass shootings pile up we keep hearing the common argument from the gun nut lobby about a good guy with a gun.

That's easily shown to be garbage.

Here in the UK we have a spate of knife violence, mostly among youth and gangs. No-one, but no-one is calling for more good guys to be armed with knives. It's obviously a really, really stupid thing to say.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 603 by Percy, posted 11-09-2018 8:47 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17968
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 607 of 662 (843092)
11-13-2018 10:15 AM


Firearms and Dementia
Today on NPR radio Melissa Block had a story on firearms and dementia:

There's also a written version: Firearms And Dementia: How Do You Convince A Loved One To Give Up Their Guns?

One scary incident related in the story is when one night Ed didn't recognize his wife, Kathy, became frightened, and locked himself in their bedroom, at one point saying, "I have a gun." There *was* a gun in the room.
Kathy spent the night in the hallway outside the bedroom afraid to call the police because it might escalate the situation. By morning Ed calmed down. Kathy took the gun, removed the ammunition, then locked the gun away in the basement.

This thread isn't about dementia, but dementia is just one of things that can happen to us. As the story relates, many people keep loaded firearms in nightstands for self defense, violating one of the primary rules of gun safety: guns and ammunition should be locked away separately. Most people who are concerned about self defense or home defense do not follow this rule. This only makes bad situations worse. Should someone in the household become angry or suicidal or delusional or confused, a loaded and available gun in the house can only make a bad situation worse, potentially turning it into a tragedy where someone is injured or killed.

--Percy


    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17968
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 608 of 662 (843178)
11-14-2018 7:35 AM


Doctors Take a Stand
Emergency room doctors have reached the point where they've had to deal with the aftermath of gun violence for too long and are taking a stand, as reported here: Doctors Revolt After N.R.A. Tells Them to ‘Stay in Their Lane’ on Gun Policy

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 609 by vimesey, posted 11-14-2018 8:54 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 907
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 609 of 662 (843184)
11-14-2018 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 608 by Percy
11-14-2018 7:35 AM


Re: Doctors Take a Stand
I read the NRA’s tweet, suggesting that doctors’ voices should effectively be silenced.

Interesting the NRA is so adamant about rights under the Second Amendment, but is totally opposed to people’s rights under the First.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by Percy, posted 11-14-2018 7:35 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17968
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 610 of 662 (843290)
11-15-2018 8:49 PM


Another Innocent Victim
2-year-old found handgun under father’s pillow, fatally shot himself

What more need be said?

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 611 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2018 4:41 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1965
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 611 of 662 (843305)
11-16-2018 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 610 by Percy
11-15-2018 8:49 PM


Re: Another Innocent Victim
Maybe if they had an armed guard in the bedroom the child wouldn't have been able to take the gun from under the pillow? Maybe in such a case he just would have been wounded and not killed?

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by Percy, posted 11-15-2018 8:49 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 612 by vimesey, posted 11-16-2018 9:25 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 907
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 612 of 662 (843314)
11-16-2018 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 611 by Pressie
11-16-2018 4:41 AM


Re: Another Innocent Victim
Or maybe if it had been a semi-automatic rifle. They're so much better at preventing deaths.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2018 4:41 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17968
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 613 of 662 (843381)
11-17-2018 10:18 AM


The National Integrated Ballistic Information Network
A couple weeks ago ICANT stupidly commented that he didn't think gun registries would help in crime solving. This goes counter to common sense, so I replied by supplying a couple of ways that gun registries might help capture the perpetrators of gun crimes. Today's New York Times has run an article (Catching Killers by Matching Tiny Marks on Bullets) that mentions The National Integrated Ballistic Information Network, something I didn't know existed. It describes an example of how the network helps catch criminals:

quote:
In a series of brazen attacks a few summers back, a man known as the “ruthless robber” stole money from his victims and then opened fire on them, leaving little behind but wounded bodies and ejected shell casings.

The police did not know when the emboldened man might strike again. But a week after the fourth robbery, a 9 millimeter Glock handgun discovered during an unrelated traffic stop was matched to the spent bullets through a federal ballistics database, leading detectives straight to Amin Ackridge.

“This case would likely have gone unsolved” if not for the bullet match, said Jason Grenell, an assistant district attorney in Philadelphia. He successfully prosecuted Mr. Ackridge last year for the 2015 robberies and shootings, which injured four people, including a man who tried to intervene and is now paralyzed from the waist down. Mr. Ackridge was sentenced to 178 years in prison.

Across the country, police departments are increasingly turning to the National Integrated Ballistic Information Network, and its catalog of more than three million detailed images of spent shell casings, to connect dots and solve investigations that might otherwise have stalled. Overseen by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the database, also known as NIBIN, can identify whether the same gun was used in multiple shootings.


All guns of all types everywhere should be registered in a database that includes ballistics and shell markings information. Here's more:

quote:
About 48 hours after Cleophus Cooksey Jr., was arrested last December in connection with a double homicide, Phoenix police officers used the database to link him to seven other killings, discovering they had potentially caught a serial killer without realizing that one had been on the loose.

And in Colorado Springs, the database helped the police solve an especially vexing case involving five separate shootings, including a drive-by at a city shopping mall. The police had struggled to find the assailants, and then the database revealed that members of one gang had shared a “community gun.” Four of the members were convicted.


Those against effective gun registration and strict licensing are just giving free rein to thugs and murderers.

Sure criminals will skirt these laws, but the more that law abiding people follow them the harder it will become for criminals to hide.

AbE:

A short excerpt from another NYT article (My Father, a Judge, Said a Gun Control Case Was One of His Hardest. Now I See Why.):

quote:
Washington’s history of gun violence has contributed to local residents’ push for more controls. The city’s outlook was also affected by events in October 2002, when a sniper team terrorized local residents. John Allen Muhammad and his accomplice, Lee Boyd Malvo, who was 17 at the time, shot and killed 10 people and critically injured three others during a shooting spree that lasted more than three weeks. The duo evaded the police and the F.B.I., who were especially frustrated because they repeatedly found shell casings at the shooting scenes but had no way to trace them to the weapons that had been used. They also had no way to track down potential suspects because the federal ballistics database includes casing information only for guns that have been used in previous crimes.

I covered Mr. Muhammad’s trial in Maryland in 2006 as well as his subsequent execution in Virginia three years later. In the wake of these events, many gun control advocates cited the sniper killings as a catalyzing moment in their sense of urgency about the need for better tracking of ammunition. They pushed for federally requiring microstamping, serializing bullets and creating a national database that would record the ballistics signature of every gun sold in the United States, not just those had been used in earlier crimes. Microstamping is technology that imprints a bullet’s casing with a microscopic array of characters that can be used to identify the firearm, similar to a license plate number.

Most of these efforts to regulate guns and ammunition have fallen flat.


"Gun nut America" claims no efforts would keep criminals from hiding their use of guns, but that just doesn't compute. The truth is that gun advocates don't care about crime, they don't care about the carnage they're inflicting on themselves, friends and family, and they give the most credence to the fantasy in their own mind that if everyone carried a gun there would be less crime and fewer murders.

One of the gun laws struck down in Washington DC required that rifles and shotguns be stored either locked or disassembled.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : AbE.


    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 614 of 662 (843614)
11-19-2018 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by Percy
11-06-2018 1:03 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Percy

Percy writes:

You still have it backwards. If you claim that the sun will rise in the west tomorrow, YOU are the one who needs a reason. If you claim that there was a "change in nature", YOU are the one who needs a reason.

The same place he/she would go to buy a gun if all guns were banned. The black market.

Gun shows only allow licensed gun dealers to have booths at gun shows.

How would you propose to get individuals to do a background check before they delivered a gun to someone?

Have you ever been to a gun show?
Probably not because people who go to gun shows go to buy a gun or to sell an antique gun to one of the antique dealers.

An individual just wanting to sell a gun just runs a add in the little shopper paper and usually the gun is sold before the paper hits the streets. As the gun dealers get advance notice of guns for sale.

Percy writes:

Percy writes:

A more informed electorate would help, too. Trump tells the people at his rallies that (for example, there are a wide range of topics Trump lies about to choose from) Democrats want open borders and they believe him.


What lie does Trump tell?

What lie doesn't Trump tell? If his lips are moving he's lying. The Washington Post keeps a database of Trump falsehoods and misleading statements which is at 6420 and counting to this point in his presidency.
One of the lies that Trump likes to tell the most at his campaign rallies is that Democrats want open borders. Even the most rabid Trumpublican, assuming he's informed, would know that's not true.

Then why did Senator Schumer kill the $20 billion bill to fund the border wall for 1 3/4 million dreamers when the democrats had only asked for 800,000?

Sounds like the democrats want open borders to me.

Percy writes:

You're misremembering. It looks like you're talking about the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, signed into law by Reagan in November of 1986. No one ever wanted the border closed or would want the border closed, not the Republicans or the Democrats.

When I mention closing the border I am talking about everything between the legal entry points of entry. And that was what they promised Reagan they would do for the amnesty.

Had that happened we would not have 12 million at the present.

Percy writes:

But Trump *is* lying when he says Democrats are for open borders. They are not. No one is for open borders, and no one is for closed borders.

Then they should put up the money to build the wall.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by Percy, posted 11-06-2018 1:03 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by Percy, posted 11-21-2018 2:23 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 615 of 662 (843622)
11-19-2018 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by NosyNed
11-08-2018 9:58 AM


Re: Facts and Statistics
Hi Ned

NosyNed writes:


But what he should ask himself is, having chosen to join a population that is demonstratively less safe, why should he think he isn't subject to whatever causes them to be less safe.

It is called training Ned.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by NosyNed, posted 11-08-2018 9:58 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 616 of 662 (843625)
11-19-2018 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 595 by ringo
11-07-2018 11:03 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi ringo

ringo writes:

As I said, the constitutional right to bear arms doesn't give you the moral right to blow people's heads off - any more than the legal right to own slaves gave people the moral right.

I don't have any intention of blowing anyone's head off unless they are trying to blow my head off, my wife's or someone near me.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by ringo, posted 11-07-2018 11:03 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by ringo, posted 11-20-2018 11:45 AM ICANT has responded

    
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