Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 89 (8842 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-20-2018 3:41 AM
267 online now:
Hyroglyphx, PaulK, Tangle (3 members, 264 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: MrTim
Post Volume:
Total: 833,966 Year: 8,789/29,783 Month: 1,036/1,977 Week: 174/380 Day: 7/51 Hour: 2/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
45
6
78
...
16NextFF
Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Percy
Member
Posts: 17328
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 76 of 231 (828680)
02-22-2018 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
02-22-2018 10:56 AM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Faith writes:

We have a problem with crazed shooters these days.

There is no evidence of diminished mental health in the U.S. versus other western countries. We have a problem with guns.

One could spend some time trying to figure out why,...

The only people who need to "spend some time trying to figure out why" are those trying to avoid an answer. The obvious answer to "why" is guns.

...possibly to good purpose,...

"Possibly to good purpose"? Getting rid of the guns is obviously to a "good purpose," since with no guns there could be no gun deaths. Prior to the invention of the gun there were no gun deaths.

...but the point is we have a particular problem that needs addressing,...

Yes, we do have "a particular problem that needs addressing," and that problem is too many guns.

...and taking more guns away from the good guys strikes some of us as the least sane solution.

Taking away the guns is the most sane solution, and it is a proven solution as demonstrated by the rest of the civilized world.

The problem is not guns, it's crazed shooters.

The problem is crazy people in denial of the simple fact that more guns mean more gun deaths, and that the more lethal the gun the more gun deaths.

If you want to argue for better restrictions that really would keep guns out of the hands of the crazed ones great,...

Psychologists and psychiatrists will tell you there is no way to pre-identify who is going to murder.

I'm all for it, but we all know that isn't really possible.

Yes, precisely, pre-identifying who will murder "isn't really possible," so why did you mention it?

I'm also for better gun control in general,...

You keep saying this, but everything else you say contradicts it.

...but I think it's really slimy of the leftists who always jump on the crazed shooter cases to try to take guns away from everybody else.

I think Taq is right that you should stop turning this into a left versus right issue. This is a case of those who are sincere about solving the gun murder problem versus those who are not, and simply because they like guns.

I have no idea how to deal with a situation like the Vegas shooter.

I know how to keep mass murders like the one in Las Vegas from happening. No assault rifles. No bump stocks. No high capacity magazines. No bullets that cause massive damage.

Possibly if there had been someone in the crowd or nearby who had a rifle handy he might have been stopped before he did his worst.

Seriously?

I don't know.

That's for sure.

But making sure crowds anywhere are unarmed in this day and age is NOT the sane solution.

Making sure everyone is unarmed is the sane solution, and the sooner we start the better.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 02-22-2018 10:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17328
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 77 of 231 (828681)
02-22-2018 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
02-22-2018 11:22 AM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Faith writes:

Always characterizing your opponents in such extreme terms doesn't help the discussion.

In other words you have no answer to Ringo's post showing the absurdity of your position.

I for one have never advocated arming all people or even most people.

But that's the logical endpoint of your argument. Teachers committing murder or making mistakes will require the arming of ever more teachers to take out those teachers, and on and on. Get off the crazy bus.

All it should take is a few, and preventing those few from being in a position to help by, say, gun free zones, doesn't help the situation.

Making as much of the country as possible into a gun-free zone is the answer.

Making a big deal about how to tell who the good guys are is also a red herring.

Making untenable arguments like this is the actual red herring. When everyone has a gun, telling good guys from bad guys is the biggest problem. You're in favor of creating more situations where good guys get hurt.

It certainly IS about "this day and age." We have a NEW unusual problem in this country, and it's the reason for all this talk about gun control NOW. Other countries don't have our particular problems and the comparison is unfair.

The only thing different about the U.S. is the increasingly easy availability of guns and bullets of very high lethality.

From what caffeine said, it seems Israel allows more armed people in areas where there is more known danger.

You stated you were backing away from your support of the Israel approach.

Sounds extremely reasonable to me, but our situation of lone crazed shooters doesn't need more than a very few armed people, and the solution of taking away guns from the most vulnerable areas hits me as crazier than crazy.

Name a place that isn't vulnerable to an attack by a lone gunman with an assault rifle?

And again, stop arguing this when there's been a shooting, it makes a wacko emotional issue out of something that needs the most careful reasonable thought.

If you don't think this is the time to argue this then why don't you do as you say?

The fact of the matter is that after a mass shooting is only a bad time to talk about it for those who are permanently unwilling to offer any meaningful answers.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 02-22-2018 11:22 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 78 of 231 (828700)
02-22-2018 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
02-22-2018 10:28 AM


compromise
If leftists didn't always immediately try to build their case for gun control after such a shooting, trying to pre-empt other points of view, there wouldn't be this predictable exchange of insults every time.

Leftists continuously put forward their case. They become a focus of news media after notorious shootings.

After a terrorist attack, rightists seem to do the same thing. Arguing for tighter immigration, more powers of surveillance, more funds for searching people, more restrictions on travel etc etc.

The rightists often get their way when a rare terrorist attack occurs. The leftists seldom get much when a common shooting occurs.

Make the case in a neutral time rather than trying to manipulate public opinion at the most emotional possible time.

In 2017 there were 346 mass shootings.

In 2018, - there was Marshall County High School on 23rd January. There was Melcroft, Pennsylvania at a car wash on the 28th January. There was Stoneman Douglas High School on 14th February. Has there been a neutral time in 2018? How long does there need to be a gap between events to classify as neutral? Does the same apply for terrorist attacks?

And calling us wingnuts doesn't help.

I'm sure calling us reprehensible leftists doesn't either. Perhaps you should avoid contributing so you are able to actually take the moral high ground rather than blaming the leftists for starting it like a kid being told off for fighting.

I'm for more gun control but I'm also a defender of the second amendment and I think having a FEW more armed people at schools and other vulnerable institutions is a reasonable solution.

The second amendment doesn't insist that all firearms should be allowable. If safety is your concern why not compromise - agree to to the banning of 'popular' weapons of mass murder - handguns, high capacity rifles etc in exchange for arming a few good men in vulnerable areas?

I argue that banning certain classes of weapons will work, you can argue the arming of some key figures will work. We might both be right - win-win. And the second amendment can stand - citizens will still have the right to keep and bear arms. Just not all arms. Like is in fact the case today.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 02-22-2018 10:28 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 79 of 231 (828702)
02-22-2018 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
02-22-2018 10:28 AM


Re: Wingnut's attack Florida High School Students
Faith writes:

quote:
If leftists didn't always immediately try to build their case for gun control after such a shooting

Since there's a school shooting every week and a mass shooting every other day, exactly when are we supposed to be building the case for gun control?

Remember, Faith, you want what these students want. Why are you hesitating? Because it would make you look "liberal"? Is the fear of appearing "liberal" so overwhelming that you would rather let these children die?

quote:
trying to pre-empt other points of view

You mean like the conservatives who are claiming that these children don't have a right to speak? That they're "paid actors"?

You mean like *YOU* who literally just said that "leftists are trying to pre-empt other points of view"? Who claim that anybody who disagrees with you is engaging in a "predictable exchange of insults"?

quote:
Make the case in a neutral time

Why? Why not now when everybody is paying attention? Why wait until nobody cares anymore?

And once again, exactly when is this "neutral time" you value so much? There's a school shooting every week and a mass shooting every other day. Exactly when are we supposed to be building the case for gun control?

Remember, Faith, you want what these students want. Why are you hesitating? Is the fear of appearing "liberal" so overwhelming that you would rather let these students die?

quote:
I think having a FEW more armed people at schools and other vulnerable institutions is a reasonable solution.

There was an armed guard at the Pulse nightclub.

It didn't stop the shooting.

Chris Kyle, the guy from the American Sniper movies was an expert with guns. He and his companion, Chad Littlefield, were armed when they were killed by Eddie Ray Routh. In fact, the guns they had on them were still holstered, had not been fired, and still had the safeties on. And on top of that, the guns that were used to kill Kyle and Littlefield were owned by Kyle.

When you add more people with guns into the mix, when the cops show up, they aren't going to know who the shooter is. In fact, the police in Amarillo just shot a student who had just *disarmed* the active shooter because they thought he was the one they were after. And this was in a chapel.

That was the same day as the Parkland shooting.

When are we supposed to talk about this since this happens every other day? If we have to let "enough time" pass, when will that happen?

Remember, Faith, you want what these students want. Why are you hesitating?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 02-22-2018 10:28 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 80 of 231 (828705)
02-22-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
02-22-2018 10:56 AM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Faith writes:

quote:
We have a problem with crazed shooters these days.

Oh? Other countries have people who are mentally ill and they don't have this problem.

Women are just as likely to be mentally ill and yet all the mass shootings are carried out by men.

Mentally ill people are no more likely to engage in violence as those who aren't.

But let's assume that it really is a question of "mental health" that is causing this country, and only this country, to have a school shooting every week and a mass shooting every other day. Why would the conservatives gut Obamacare and its mandates for mental health services to be covered?

quote:
but the point is we have a particular problem that needs addressing, and taking more guns away from the good guys strikes some of us as the least sane solution.

But it is clear that more guns doesn't solve the problem.

Why would taking guns away not help? It's really hard to get shot when there is no gun to shoot somebody with.

No other country has this problem, Faith. Only the US does. We have only about 5% of the world's population, but we have nearly half of the world's guns.

Let's take a look at Japan's requirements to get a gun:

You have to attend a class that lasts all day and is only offered once a month. Then you have to prove your skill on the shooting range, passing a shooting test. Then you have to undergo a mental screening and drug test. Then, you need to undergo a thorough background check. Only then can you buy a gun which you then must register with the police, including a report on where you keep it and how you store and lock the gun and the ammunition separately. The police are then going to inspect your gun every year and you need to take the exam and shooting test every three years.

Is that something like what we ought to do?

quote:
I'm also for better gun control in general, but I think it's really slimy of the leftists who always jump on the crazed shooter cases to try to take guns away from everybody else.

But they're not "crazed shooters."

And again, there's a school shooting every week and a mass shooting every other day. Exactly when are we supposed to talk about this?

When your child hits someone else with a stick, you don't blame the stick.

But you still take the stick away.

quote:
But making sure crowds anywhere are unarmed in this day and age is NOT the sane solution.

As pointed out, that's the exact opposite of what would help. More guns only means more people get shot. When the cops show up, they don't know who is the shooter.

The Pulse had an armed guard. He traded shots with the gunman who then retreated into the club. When the guard called for backup, who were they going to go after?

Remember, in Amarillo, the same day as the Florida shooting, the cops killed a student in a church who had just disarmed the actual shooter.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 02-22-2018 10:56 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 02-22-2018 5:42 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28484
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 81 of 231 (828713)
02-22-2018 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Rrhain
02-22-2018 4:36 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
I didn't mean to imply some formal "mental illness" by the word "crazed."

I don't claim more armed people would always work, just that there's some chance of it helping when a totally disarmed target audience just makes for sitting ducks.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Rrhain, posted 02-22-2018 4:36 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Percy, posted 02-22-2018 6:26 PM Faith has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17328
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 82 of 231 (828716)
02-22-2018 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
02-22-2018 5:42 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Faith writes:

I didn't mean to imply some formal "mental illness" by the word "crazed."

Really? Then what did you mean? You argued that we should "keep guns out of the hands of the crazed ones" (Message 69), so what is this quality of the "crazed ones" that would allow us to recognize them and keep them from getting guns?

I don't claim more armed people would always work, just that there's some chance of it helping when a totally disarmed target audience just makes for sitting ducks.

Yeah, like all those sitting duck audiences in Europe, Australia and other western style countries that get slaughtered in mass shooting after mass shooting. Oh, wait a minute, those countries don't have mass shootings, because they haven't got many guns. Gee, I guess you've made another false argument.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 02-22-2018 5:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 02-22-2018 6:48 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28484
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 231 (828718)
02-22-2018 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Percy
02-22-2018 6:26 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
What false argument? Europe has Muslims, we have lone crazed shooters. I think they were stupid to get rid of their guns.

Where did I say they don't have mass shootings because they don't have many guns? I don't recall saying anything of the sort. I do recall someone saying they don't have the problems we have which we supposedly have because we have so many guns, and I accepted that as a general description of a more homogeneous society, forgetting about the Muslims. It's the left that says no guns=no shootings, why would you impute such a notion to me?

You don't have to have an identifiable mental illness to do something evil.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Percy, posted 02-22-2018 6:26 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Rrhain, posted 02-22-2018 8:48 PM Faith has responded
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 02-23-2018 2:59 AM Faith has responded
 Message 91 by Percy, posted 02-23-2018 9:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 84 of 231 (828721)
02-22-2018 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
02-22-2018 6:48 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Faith responds to Percy:

quote:
I do recall someone saying they don't have the problems we have which we supposedly have because we have so many guns

Thus, your argument that unarmed populations are "sitting ducks" is trivially shown to be false.

The United States is the *only* country in the world that has a mass shooting every other day. That is not an exaggeration. That is not some sort of hyperbole to make a point. The rate of a mass shooting, defined as having four or more injured or killed, in the United States is a bit under 48 hours.

If the argument is that we should be arming more people because unarmed populations are "sitting ducks," then how do you explain the fact that it doesn't happen in populations with fewer guns and thus so many unarmed populations?

quote:
I accepted that as a general description of a more homogeneous society

Huh? What does that have to do anything? Did you just claim that black people are more likely to engage in gun violence? I know...I know...you never used the word "black." So what do you mean by "more homogeneous society"? What is the criteria that you are using which makes the US not as "homogeneous" as other countries?

And then explain how this has any effect upon gun violence. Canada, India, South Africa...they are not as "homogeneous" as the US and yet they don't have this problem of mass shootings.

quote:
forgetting about the Muslims.

Especially since they have a lower rate of gun violence than non-Muslims.

Why does the US have a school shooting every week and a mass shooting every other day? Are you seriously claiming the fact that the US has only 5% of the world's population but almost 50% of the world's guns doesn't have some sort of effect?

You never answered my offering of the Japanese system of getting a gun. Would that be good?

Edited by Rrhain, : Added some context of countries regarding "homogeneity" and the number of guns in the US


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 02-22-2018 6:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 02-22-2018 9:22 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28484
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 85 of 231 (828723)
02-22-2018 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Rrhain
02-22-2018 8:48 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
...

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Rrhain, posted 02-22-2018 8:48 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5763
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 86 of 231 (828731)
02-23-2018 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
02-22-2018 6:48 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Faith writes:

Europe has Muslims, we have lone crazed shooters.


You're a really stunning advert for Christianity Faith, all tolereance, wisdom and love. It just shines right through you.

But just as a point of fact, you have both Muslins AND guns.

I think they were stupid to get rid of their guns.

Have you ever been to Europe? Do you own a passport?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 02-22-2018 6:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 02-23-2018 4:48 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10695
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 87 of 231 (828732)
02-23-2018 3:23 AM


America's solution to school shootings
Well, it looks like after a couple of days of waffling, the president has decided to turn over the problem of school shootings to the gun manufacturer's lobby. The president has decided to back off of the weak steps he was taking earlier during the week, (tightening background checks, curbing sales of bump stocks) and has put his support behind getting weapons into school.

Great. Problem solved. We will have more weapons than ever. I imagine the gun manufacturers are slobbering like one of Pavlov's dogs about the potential for lucrative gun contracts to supply guns to every school in America.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28484
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 88 of 231 (828733)
02-23-2018 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Tangle
02-23-2018 2:59 AM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
The personal comments are against the rules and thoroughly disgusting.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 02-23-2018 2:59 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Percy, posted 02-23-2018 10:00 AM Faith has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17328
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 89 of 231 (828735)
02-23-2018 7:37 AM


Putting armed people in the schools doesn't work
From today's New York Times: Armed Deputy ‘Never Went In’ During Shooting

Of course, first responders armed with this:

Don't usually fare too well when going up against this:

As several articles have noted, first responders face the highest risk of injury and death. A dead first responder is no help to anyone. Prudence and caution is called for. The idea of arming teachers with handguns and expecting them to face down assault weapons is a bad one. You'll just get more dead heroes.

Since Columbine "authorities have emphasized the importance of pursuing the attacker of attackers quickly" (Armed sheriff's deputy stayed outside Florida school while mass killing took place). But the article, quoting from the Police Executive Research Forum, also says:

quote:
Of course, this approach brings with it inherent issues, the report continued, because “a faster response is more dangerous to responding officers. Patrol officers who quickly move to confront an active shooter face a high likelihood of being shot themselves.”

I think the deputy likely knew that.

--Percy


    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17328
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 90 of 231 (828736)
02-23-2018 7:44 AM


NRA's Wayne LaPierre Speaks Out
In a speech before the Conservative Political Action Conference, NRA head Wayne LaPierre lashed out at liberal gun control efforts:

quote:
“The elites don’t care not one whit about America’s school system and school children.”

"The elites?" You mean like the school kids from Parkland speaking out against guns? Those 14 through 18 year-old elites, and their 17 elite now-dead classmates? Those elites?

Or by "elites" do you mean Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, founded after the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre?

Or maybe by "elites" you mean The Brady Campaign, founded after James Brady was severely wounded in the assassination attempt on Reagan?

Or maybe by "elites" you mean Americans for Responsible Solutions founded by former U.S. congresswoman Gabby Giffords after she was one of the victims of a mass shooting in Arizona?

quote:
“Their goal is to eliminate the Second Amendment and our firearms freedoms so they can eradicate all individual freedoms.”

Do you have any evidence, Mr. LaPierre, that there are "elites" trying to "eradicate all individual freedoms".

These "elites" as you describe them don't exist. You're engaging in fear-mongering to the paranoid right.

Back in the real world, all people want is reasonable gun control that would reduce gun deaths in this country. Since the 2nd amendment describes "a well regulated militia", obviously regulations are required in order to regulate those who might be candidates for this militia. Not that there are many such militias left in the country - the 2nd amendment is way antiquated and requires significant revision or repeal.

--Percy


    
Prev1
...
45
6
78
...
16NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018