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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Percy
Member
Posts: 17994
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 91 of 662 (828737)
02-23-2018 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
02-22-2018 6:48 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Faith writes:

What false argument?

The false argument is the one I quoted from your Message 81. Here it is again:

Faith in Message 81 writes:

I don't claim more armed people would always work, just that there's some chance of it helping when a totally disarmed target audience just makes for sitting ducks.

This is false because "totally disarmed target audiences" sit safe and secure throughout the western world because they have many, many fewer guns and effective gun regulations, with the exception of the U.S.

Europe has Muslims,...

Your prejudices are showing again.

...we have lone crazed shooters.

First a couple comments: Columbine and San Bernadino each had two shooters, so sometimes they work in concert. And we have no more crazed shooters than any other civilized country. What we have is so many guns that it is easy for those inclined to mass murder to obtain them.

Second, a question: You still haven't said what you mean by "crazed shooter," except to say that you don't mean it's a mental health problem. What is it then? What are the qualities of a "crazed shooter" that would identify him before he shoots?

I think they were stupid to get rid of their guns.

And yet they have far lower gun homicide and suicide rates that can only be attributed to the much lower prevalence of guns. Protecting society through responsible legislation and regulation is smart, not stupid.

Where did I say they don't have mass shootings because they don't have many guns?

I never said you did say that. I think your eyes are playing tricks on you. Check my message Message 82 again. The words you're claiming I attributed to you are not within the quote box. That means they are my words, not your words. It was me that said, "Oh, wait a minute, those countries don't have mass shootings, because they haven't got many guns."

I don't recall saying anything of the sort.

That's because you didn't say anything of the sort. Nobody said you said anything of the sort. Either this is your eye problem acting up or maybe you had a few too many fingers of whiskey last night.

I do recall someone saying they don't have the problems we have which we supposedly have because we have so many guns, and I accepted that as a general description of a more homogeneous society,...

As Rrhain noted, you're making no sense to equate fewer guns with greater ethnic homogeneity. Fewer guns is a result of a country's gun regulations, not their ethnic makeup. Let's go down the list of top 20 deadliest mass shootings in the U.S. and see who was responsible and what their ethnic background was:

  • Las Vegas shooting, Stephen Paddock, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Orlando nightclub shooting, Omar Mateen, born U.S. citizen, ethnic Afghan male
  • Virginia Tech shooting, Seung-Hui Cho, South Korean male
  • Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, Adam Lanza, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Sutherland Springs church shooting, Devin Patrick Kelley, born U.S. citizen, white male
    [(]Luby's shooting, George Hennard, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • San Ysidro McDonald's massacre, James Huberty, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • University of Texas tower shooting, Charles Whitman, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, Nikolas Jacob Cruz, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • San Bernardino attack, Syed Rizwan Farook, born U.S. citizen, ethnic Pakistani male; Tashfeen Malik, Pakistani female
  • Edmond post office shooting, Patrick Sherrill, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Columbine High School massacre, Eric Harris, born U.S. citizen, white male; Dylan Klebold, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Binghamton shootings, Jiverly Antares Wong, naturalized U.S. citizen, ethnic South Vietnamese
  • Camden shootings, Howard Barton Unruh, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Wilkes-Barre shootings, George Emil Banks, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Fort Hood shooting, Nidal Hasan, born U.S. citizen, ethnic Palestinian male
  • Washington Navy Yard shooting, Aaron Alexis, born U.S. citizen, black male
  • Aurora shooting, James Eagan Holmes, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Geneva County massacre, Michael Kenneth McLendon, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • GMAC shootings, James Edward "Pop" Pough, born U.S. citizen, black male
  • Atlanta shootings, Mark Orrin Barton, born U.S. citizen, white male
  • Red Lake shootings, Jeffrey Weise, born U.S. citizen, native American (Ojibwe people)
  • Umpqua Community College shooting, Chris Harper-Mercer, born U.S. citizen, white male

Only two of the murderers were not U.S. citizens, and only five were not ethnically black, white or native Americans.

It's the left that says no guns=no shootings, why would you impute such a notion to me?

It's rational people who understand that "no guns=no shootings", and I didn't impute such a notion to you.

You don't have to have an identifiable mental illness to do something evil.

So I take it you agree that all this talk about mental health professionals pre-detecting who will murder is nonsense.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 02-22-2018 6:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17994
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 92 of 662 (828738)
02-23-2018 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
02-23-2018 4:48 AM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Faith writes:

The personal comments are against the rules and thoroughly disgusting.

The first disgusting comment in this thread came from you, when you attacked the Parkland students in your Message 49:

Faith in Message 49 writes:

We who think gun control is not the right response to these shootings naturally have a question why that is the solution proposed by the students. Could be leftist interference, no reason why that's not a possibility.

Then you began attacking "leftists" for talking about gun control after yet another school massacre. This is from your Message 55:

Faith in Message 55 writes:

I think it's reprehensible that gun control becomes this huge leftist cause every time there is a shooting like this, using an emotional situation to push their politics and drown out the other side.

And more of the same from your Message 64:

Faith in Message 64 writes:

If leftists didn't always immediately try to build their case for gun control after such a shooting, trying to pre-empt other points of view, there wouldn't be this predictable exchange of insults every time.

And even more of the same from your Message 69:

Faith in Message 69 writes:

I'm also for better gun control in general, but I think it's really slimy of the leftists who always jump on the crazed shooter cases to try to take guns away from everybody else.

But congratulations for always getting out in front of developments: you were the first to insult and issue disgusting comments, and also the first to complain about them.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 02-23-2018 4:48 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 02-23-2018 4:28 PM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 93 of 662 (828753)
02-23-2018 3:27 PM


Heated Comments
As is the case in the real worlds, discussion regarding gun laws always provides us the opportunity to ramp up the rhetoric. Certainly, I am not the voice of reason when it comes to maintaining civility on the internet.

Yesterday I listened to NRA spokes rifle,Wayne LaPierre telli folks that people on the other side of the debate don't care about school shootings are the young people who got shot. According to Wayne, even your local law enforcement folks don't care about school children. Well given that the most prominent speakers right now are the survivors of school shootings, surely those accusations are not accurate. They are examples of the BS that passes for discourse over this issue.

In the interest of fairness, I probably would post a left mischaracterization of the right wing's position. While I acknowledge that those things exist, I am not going to point them out. If you've got them, post them.

Nevertheless I was pleased that one of our more conservative members did respond. That point of view is missing here. What is still missing is a quality conservative response. Let's not make the mistake of assuming that just because somebody posts weak assed comments in EvC and gets rebutted, that anyone one has won anything substantial.

If you're passionate about the issue, and lots of you are, and you are an American, then please get off your posterior and do something. Don't let a bunch of 17-18 year old kids carry the ball by themselves. That would be an ultimate betrayal. And don't count on the DNC to help you. They are scared that you will energize the Republican base. Find out who is on the right side of this issue in your town, and participate. I am guessing that there are plenty of right minded, newly energized folk around you that are just as eager as you are -- even if you live in gun infested central Carolina.

Find somebody doing something positive and join them. I know you will get a t-shirt out of it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Percy, posted 02-23-2018 4:18 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17994
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 94 of 662 (828754)
02-23-2018 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by NoNukes
02-23-2018 3:27 PM


Re: Heated Comments
Hi NoNukes,

This isn't really a reply to you, I'm more just adding a suggestion to your comments.

One thing people can do is write their congresspeople. Everyone living in the United States has two senators and one congressman (or congresswoman, as in my congressional district). They all have webpages that are easy to find, just type something like "representative district 2 nh" or "senators nh" in to Google. If you don't know what congressional district you're in you'll have to look that up, too.

The websites make it really easy to send messages to your congressional delegation. I write one message, then cut-n-paste it to all three, but at present they're all Democrats, so the same message is usually appropriate. If your congressional delegation is a mix of Democrats and Republicans, or if they just have different views on the topic, you may need to write more than one message.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2018 3:27 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30216
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 95 of 662 (828756)
02-23-2018 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Percy
02-23-2018 10:00 AM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Somebody needs to call you down hard, but I guess nobody will.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Percy, posted 02-23-2018 10:00 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2018 4:57 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 98 by Percy, posted 02-23-2018 6:02 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 662 (828759)
02-23-2018 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
02-23-2018 4:28 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Faith writes:

Somebody needs to call you down hard, but I guess nobody will.

My message was really for both of you. I don't have the credibility as the voice of reason to call anybody out, so I won't do that here. I'd like to see more reasoned analysis and less name calling, but please do as you will. When you don't post reasoned arguments, well, that's also something we can learn from.

Edited by NoNukes, : Quoting some context. Hope this helps.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 02-23-2018 4:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 497
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 97 of 662 (828762)
02-23-2018 5:20 PM


New age limits for gun purchase(s)
The one change in gun laws that everyone seems to agree on is to set the minimum age to purchase a gun at 21 years old, including the much beloved NRA. Since the Parkland Florida shooter, who killed 17 people is only 19 years old, he would not have been able to purchase his guns (legally). However, Stephen Paddock, the Las Vegas, Nevada shooter who killed 58 people and wounded 851 others was 64 years old, so its obvious that the law should set the youngest age to purchase a gun at 66 years old. Im guessing that this would still allow Faith to purchase all the guns her heart desires.

Perhaps some day a 93 year old will hobble into an old folks home brandishing a muzzle load musket and blast away a few residents. Then the politicians can set the minimum age at 95.


Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2018 8:30 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17994
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 98 of 662 (828766)
02-23-2018 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
02-23-2018 4:28 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Faith writes:

Somebody needs to call you down hard, but I guess nobody will.

But I notice you don't deny making the first disgusting comment when you attacked Parkland students who had just witnessed their classmates slaughtered for voicing their opinions in your Message 49. And you don't deny that you attacked "leftists" in your Message 55, Message 64 and Message 69. And you don't deny the irony of you being the first to complain about personal comments when you were the first to make disgusting comments and attack your fellow participants.

As is often the case with you, you quickly abandon the topic and start complaining about your treatment. People are under no obligation here to ignore repugnant comments. If you're going to express repugnant personal opinions then of course people are going to comment on those opinions. For instance, your lack of compassion for victims as compared to the supposed rights of gun nuts is repugnant. Your belief that people's right to life is outweighed by gun nuts' supposed right to have their toys is repugnant. There's nothing else to say.

Do you have something to say about gun control? I've responded to you quite a bit, but you've only responded a few times. There's been no reply to my Message 54, Message 68, Message 75, Message 76, Message 77 or Message 91.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 02-23-2018 4:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 02-23-2018 6:27 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30216
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 99 of 662 (828767)
02-23-2018 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Percy
02-23-2018 6:02 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
gOD BLESS YOU AND KEEP YOU AND MAKE HIS FACE TO SHINE UPON YOU AND GIVE YOU PEACE.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Percy, posted 02-23-2018 6:02 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Percy, posted 02-23-2018 6:46 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 116 by Aussie, posted 02-26-2018 1:53 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 117 by Aussie, posted 02-26-2018 1:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17994
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 100 of 662 (828768)
02-23-2018 6:36 PM


Trump Wrong Again About Arming Teachers
At the White House meeting with students about school shootings President Trump said:

quote:
"If you had a teacher who was adept with the firearm, they could end the attack very quickly."

This is apparently obviously false. A study of the New York City Police Department's average hit rate found that it was 18%: Evaluation of the New York City Police Department Firearm Training and Firearm-Discharge Review Process.

Any policeman, deputy, teacher or other armed person entering a school building that has been invaded by an active shooter has a very big problem. The shooter only has to shoot anything that moves. The rescuer has to pick out the shooter from other students. He will, one would expect, make very certain he is firing at the shooter and not at an innocent student, and this will entail delay, giving the shooter a big advantage.

I have nothing but sympathy for Deputy Scott Peterson who was suspended (and later resigned) for waiting outside and not entering the building after the attack began. I don't actually know what Peterson would say, he hasn't commented publicly, but were I him I would say, "I didn't sign up to get murdered. You issued me this pop gun, and I could hear that that was an assault rifle in there."

As the Police Executive Research Forum says:

quote:
Patrol officers who quickly move to confront an active shooter face a high likelihood of being shot themselves.

Reinforcing the fact that Deputy Peterson was inadequately armed, Sheriff: Deputies to begin carrying rifles on school grounds; teens storm Florida Capitol:

quote:
And at a news conference Wednesday, Broward County, Florida, Sheriff Scott Israel ordered all deputies who qualify to begin carrying rifles on school grounds. The rifles will be locked in patrol cars when not in use until the agency secures gun lockers and lockers, he said.

"We need to be able to defeat any threat that comes into campus," Israel said.


So now deputies will be able to carry rifles, but what kind of rifles and what kind of bullets?

And of course all of this only makes sense if you believe that the solution to the threat of guns is more and more powerful guns.

--Percy


    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17994
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 101 of 662 (828769)
02-23-2018 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
02-23-2018 6:27 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
My my, now you're frothing at the mouth. You still don't get the irony of being both the first to get personal and the first to complain about it. I also notice you're still unable deny anything I said.

Do you have anything to say about gun control? I posted a number of messages about gun control and recent events that you haven't replied to. Or are you now full into degrading the quality of discussion as much as possible?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 02-23-2018 6:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17994
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 102 of 662 (828770)
02-23-2018 6:57 PM


Companies that will and won't do business with the NRA
This information comes from the Huffington Post article These Companies Are Sticking By The NRA

First, these companies have announced they will cease doing business with the NRA:

  • Allied
  • Avis
  • Best Western
  • Budget
  • Chubb
  • Delta Airlines
  • Enterprise Holdings (Enterprise, National and Alamo rent-a-car companies)
  • First National Bank of Omaha
  • Hertz
  • MetLife
  • North American Van Lines
  • Norton
  • SimpliSafe
  • Starkey Hearing Technologies
  • Symantec's LifeLock
  • TrueCar
  • United Airlines
  • Wyndham Hotels

These companies will continue doing business with the NRA:

  • Amazon
  • Apple
  • AT&T
  • Clearent
  • eHealth
  • FedEx
  • Google
  • Harland Clarke Direct Selling Solution
  • HotelPlanner
  • Life Insurance Central
  • LifeLine Screening
  • Lockton Affinity
  • ManageUrlD
  • Medical Concierge Network
  • MidwayUSA
  • NetSpend
  • Roku
  • TrueCar
  • Vinesse Wines
  • Wild Apricot
  • YouTube (owned by Google)

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Add Avis and Hertz to list of companies ceasing business with the NRA. Make list alphabetical.

Edited by Percy, : Add Best Western, Delta Airlines and Wyndham Hotels to the "NRA No" list.

Edited by Percy, : Add Budget and United Airlines to the "NRA No" list.

Edited by Percy, : Add LifeLine Screening, Life Insurance Central, Medical Concierge Network and eHealth to "NRA Yes" list. Add Starkey Hearing Technologies to "NRA No" list.


    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 662 (828771)
02-23-2018 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by AnswersInGenitals
02-23-2018 5:20 PM


Re: New age limits for gun purchase(s)
The one change in gun laws that everyone seems to agree on is to set the minimum age to purchase a gun at 21 years old, including the much beloved NRA.

I think most people do agree on that, but the NRA does not appear to agree with the idea.

http://www.newsobserver.com/...usiness/article201502174.html

quote:
President Donald Trump endorsed barring those under 21 from buying semi-automatic weapons a move that puts him in direct opposition with the National Rifle Association.

His comments Thursday came amid a public reckoning over school gun violence after last week's Florida school massacre. NRA officials have opposed the idea, but Trump says they'll get on board.


https://www.cnn.com/...ifles-age-minimum-increase/index.html

quote:

Washington (CNN)The National Rifle Association is rejecting ideas to raise the minimum age for purchasing rifles.

The idea of keeping people younger than 21 from buying rifles including AR-15 style firearms has been proposed, including in a bill that will be introduced in the Senate. President Donald Trump said Wednesday that age at purchase is something they will look at.

NRA Public Affairs Director Jennifer Baker said in a statement, "Federal Law prohibits adults under the age of 21 from purchasing a handgun from a licensed firearm dealer. Legislative proposals that prevent law-abiding adults aged 18-20 years old from acquiring rifles and shotguns effectively prohibits them for purchasing any firearm, thus depriving them of their constitutional right to self-protection."


The NRA is beholden to the gun manufacturers as they provide the overwhelming portion of the NRA's funding. The NRA and is the gun makers' lobbying group and their agenda enabling the manufacturers to sell as many guns as possible to as many people as possible. That means that their interests may align with that of the gun owning public at times, but not at all times.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 02-23-2018 5:20 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17994
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 104 of 662 (828772)
02-23-2018 8:49 PM


Republican Congressman Knows Pistols No Match for Assault Rifles
Congressman Brian Mast (R-FL) who lost his legs in Afghanistan supports an assault weapon ban, but more importantly he, too, makes the point about how ineffective a handgun is against an AR-15:

quote:
I conceal and carry a 9-millimeter pistol most days because I know the threats, and I dont want to die because I am unprepared to return fire.

I also know that I am made less safe by the threat of tactical rifles. I am confident I can eliminate an active shooter who is attacking with a pistol because the attacker would have to be close to me. But the defense my concealed 9-millimeter affords me is largely gone if the attacker is firing from beyond 40 yards, as he could easily do with the AR-15.


Trump wants to issue teachers guns, setting them up to march toward the shooter and get slaughtered. Truthful training would tell these teachers that if they hear an assault rifle that their popgun is near useless and to not play hero.

Of course, more guns is the wrong answer anyway.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 4:12 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 105 of 662 (828787)
02-24-2018 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Percy
02-23-2018 8:49 PM


RE: No Match for Assault Rifles
I have a friend who is in law enforcement. This was his response to the idea of arming teachers:
quote:
I am coming from a practical law enforcement perspective. Tactical training, communication devices and strategic plan working in conjunction with law enforcement (the experts) would be the thought through approach to this than the idea of it "sounding cool" having untrained teachers trying to the jobs of police who are actually equipped and trained to handle domestic terrorists.

I would not entrust my kids to untrained armed teachers trying to "protect" them and engage a domestic terrorist without body armor and a pistol. Who's paying for the firearms? What if the domestic terrorist has grenades or improvised explosives? How are untrained armed teachers prepared to handle that along with going against high powered weapons? What about the liability issues if they accidentally hit a student? I'm thinking bigger than the surface. When police respond, who is communicating with them so the teachers are not mistaken for the domestic terrorists?

Any plan worth implementing must be thought through.



Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Percy, posted 02-23-2018 8:49 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by NoNukes, posted 02-24-2018 6:15 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 2:51 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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