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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Percy
Member
Posts: 17653
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 121 of 235 (828927)
02-27-2018 10:38 AM


Jimmy Fallon Will March
On last night's Tonight Show Jimmy Fallon announced that he, his wife and two kids will march with the students on March 24th in Washington D.C. in the March For Out Lives, demanding change and action by Congress to bring school mass shootings to an end.

--Percy


    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19544
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 122 of 235 (828932)
02-27-2018 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Taq
02-26-2018 5:54 PM


Re: Presidential Bravery on display.
Good ol’ Precedent Bone Spurs ... standing up after 50 years of running the other way ... in his mind, anyway.

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Taq, posted 02-26-2018 5:54 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 496
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 123 of 235 (828963)
02-27-2018 8:15 PM


Trump to the rescue
At a recent meeting of conservatives (CPAC) President Donald Trump said that had he been at the Parkdale high school when the shooting took place, he would have run into the school and confronted the shooter, even if he (Trump) was unarmed. I wish Trump had been at the school at that time and had run in unarmed and confronted the shooter. No, I’m not wishing our president any harm. I believe that Trump would have confronted the shooter and would have defused the situation and gotten the shooter to give up his gun and surrender. Why? Simply because our president is the world’s (and history’s) greatest negotiator.

I am surprised that the president hasn’t proposed the one obvious and effective solution to the school safety problem: that he reopen Trump University with campuses in every school district to teach all school staff his exquisite negotiating skills and thus end school gun violence forever. Those same negotiating skills that he used to end Obamacare while providing quality affordable health insurance to all Americans, get Mexico to pay for a border wall, end armed conflict in the Middle East, get North Korea to give up their nuclear program, and enact a tax/budget plan that gives equitable tax breaks to all citizens while balancing the budget could then be applied to making our schools safe for all. These same skills could be taught to hotel doormen and bellhops to be used on patrons with excessively heavy duffel bags or violin cases to prevent Las Vegas type attacks, and to all clergy to prevent church shooting.

I feel safer knowing that our president has the talents we need to make America secure again.


Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by NoNukes, posted 02-27-2018 9:33 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded
 Message 125 by Heathen, posted 02-28-2018 2:41 AM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 235 (828968)
02-27-2018 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by AnswersInGenitals
02-27-2018 8:15 PM


Re: Trump to the rescue
I believe that Trump would have confronted the shooter and would have defused the situation and gotten the shooter to give up his gun and surrender. Why? Simply because our president is the world’s (and history’s) greatest negotiator

Okay, so this is the style I am used to from you. Nice one!


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 02-27-2018 8:15 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 1042
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 125 of 235 (828976)
02-28-2018 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by AnswersInGenitals
02-27-2018 8:15 PM


Re: Trump to the rescue
"US President Donald Trump has sensationally confirmed that he is, in fact, Batman."

http://newsthump.com/2018/02/27/im-batman-confirms-trump/

"The White House has since clarified that the official form of address will remain President Trump and not President Batman."

Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 02-27-2018 8:15 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17653
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 126 of 235 (828987)
02-28-2018 8:13 AM


Details About the AR-15
From With AR-15s, Mass Shooters Attack With the Rifle Firepower Typically Used by Infantry Troops:

quote:
The main functional difference between the military’s M16 and M4 rifles and a civilian AR-15 is the “burst” mode on many military models, which allow three rounds to be fired with one trigger pull. Some military versions of the rifles have a full automatic feature, which fires until the trigger is released or a magazine is empty of ammunition.

But in actual American combat these technical differences are less significant than they seem. For decades the American military has trained its conventional troops to fire their M4s and M16s in the semiautomatic mode — one bullet per trigger pull — instead of on “burst” or automatic in almost all shooting situations. The weapons are more accurate this way, and thus more lethal.

The National Rifle Association and other pro-gun groups highlight the fully automatic feature in military M4s and M16s. But the American military, after a long experience with fully automatic M16s reaching back to Vietnam, decided by the 1980s to issue M16s, and later M4s, to most conventional troops without the fully automatic function, and to train them to fire in a more controlled fashion.

What all of this means is that the Parkland gunman, in practical terms, had the same rifle firepower as an American grunt using a standard infantry rifle in the standard way.
...
“They are the Formula One cars of guns, designed to kill as many people as quickly and efficiently as possible,” Mr. Plenzler said, referring to AR-15-style rifles. “We are seeing battlefield-level casualties because we are allowing those weapons on our street,” he said.
...
A New York Times analysis of a video from a Florida classroom estimates that during his crime the gunman fired his AR-15 as quickly as one-and-a-half rounds per second. The military trains soldiers to fire at a sustained rate of 12 to 15 rounds per minute, or a round every four or five seconds.

The small-caliber, high-velocity rounds used in the military rifles are identical to those sold for the civilian weapons. They have been documented inflicting grievous bone and soft-tissue wounds. Both civilian and military models of the rifle are lightweight and have very little recoil.


--Percy


    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 235 (829040)
02-28-2018 10:55 PM


Having a buffoon on your side... Not always that helpful.
Over the last couple of days, Trump has been chiding his fellow Republicans regarding their unflagging loyalty to the NRA. I think that kind of presidential needling can be a good thing. Trump insists that while he thinks the NRA is great, that he does not agree with them on everything.

All of that is reasonable. We might wonder whether Trump has enough political strength to oppose the NRA and much of his party.

Or we might wonder that if he was not pushing proposals that are dead in the water. For example, Trump has been talking about doing away with due process to deprive folks of guns. While that isn't too far afield of what some lefties, including some folks here, would like to see, the fact is that such a proposal is clearly unconstitutional, and is also a clear losing position.

Democratic lawmakers would be well advised to push their own proposals rather than to help the president screw the pooch. 75 percent of the public is in favor of all kinds of reasonable gun control ideas that are opposed by the NRA. But I think there are quite enough due process exceptions already.

For example:

http://thehill.com/...nors-dont-have-constitutional-right-to

quote:
The Trump administration official who has denied abortions to undocumented minors in U.S. custody said he does not believe they have a constitutional right to the procedure.

In a deposition Lloyd gave in December, he replied 'yes' when asked if he believed undocumented minors have "no constitutional right to abortion."
The ACLU has battled the Trump administration over the policy, representing four pregnant undocumented minors who had been blocked from getting abortions.

In three cases, the girls were able to get abortions while the fourth was released to a sponsor.

Lloyd previously worked for the Knights of Columbus, a group that opposes abortion.

The new policy represents a significant departure from how previous administrations handled pregnant undocumented minors in U.S. custody seeking abortions.



Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Percy, posted 03-01-2018 12:51 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17653
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 128 of 235 (829046)
03-01-2018 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by NoNukes
02-28-2018 10:55 PM


Re: Having a buffoon on your side... Not always that helpful.
I see three problems with Trump's gun control comments:

  1. When Trump invites in the cameras, Trump just plays to the audience. What he says cannot be relied upon.
  2. As often noted, Trump mouths the opinion he heard last, in this case public opinion. What he says cannot be relied upon.
  3. Trump is extremely bad at consistency and followthrough. What he says cannot be relied upon.

You're right that Democrats should promote their own proposals - attempting to follow the president's lead would be like trying to follow smoke wafting through the air that eventually dissipates and disappears.

I agree about due process. Hopefully we can significantly reduce gun prevalence legislatively through gun control.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by NoNukes, posted 02-28-2018 10:55 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by NoNukes, posted 03-01-2018 7:49 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 235 (829050)
03-01-2018 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Percy
03-01-2018 12:51 PM


Re: Having a buffoon on your side... Not always that helpful.
When Trump invites in the cameras, Trump just plays to the audience. What he says cannot be relied upon.

I've been trying not to be gullible. I knew that his campaign promises on health care were BS, but I am still holding out some hope that Trump can get some movement from his party on gun control. But I will likely be disappointed.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Percy, posted 03-01-2018 12:51 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 03-03-2018 12:36 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 235 (829072)
03-02-2018 1:07 PM


Republican movement on gun control?
Here is an article from Time magazine which suggests that the NRA is open to having Republicans put forth some gun control proposals.

http://time.com/5181212/nra-republicans-gun-control

quote:
America’s gun control debate has taken seemingly surprising turns in recent days, as President Donald Trump and other Republican Party leaders have signaled an openness to gun restrictions that are anathema to the powerful National Rifle Association. But behind the scenes, the NRA has given Republican lawmakers the green light to float new gun restrictions without the threat of political retribution, according to two senior GOP officials.

Gun manufacturers, who along with the NRA’s grassroots members help fund the organization, are in the midst of the worst business crisis in decades, with sales drops driving some to seek bankruptcy protection. And nothing gooses sales like the threat of new limits on guns.

Jennifer Baker, an NRA spokeswoman, denied that her organization made such overtures to Congress, and said the NRA’s main concern was not gun sales but rather defending gun rights.


I found this article interesting for several reasons.

1. Gun sales, by all reports, are down now, and there is not much disagreement that a major reason is having a Republican[1] and not a Democrat as the president. Although the NRA denies it, that lack of sales is certainly the motivation for their actions. None of the proposals out there is the least bit new, and neither is the fact that a majority of gun owners support many of those proposals.

Several things are new. Those things include very visible activism among young folks over the issue, a Republican president that has indicated that he is not afraid of the NRA, and flagging gun sales.

2. Apparently, most Republicans are still kowtowing to the NRA, and need an okay from the NRA to do the right thing. For some Congressmen, the reason is pretty obvious. The NRA is a very large and consistent donor, and folks receiving their money and benefiting from the NRA campaign advertisements are not all that interested in losing that support.

3. I find the attempts by the NRA to deny that they are motivated by gun sales, and even they approached any legislators pretty humorous.

4. I am going to talk to my wife about a trip to DC next month if there is not a strong protest scene here. Anyone else thinking about joining the protest on March 24?

[1] Trump is still a buffoon, but he seems to have blundered unto something even though his actual proposals are idiotic.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 235 (829101)
03-03-2018 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by NoNukes
03-01-2018 7:49 PM


Re: Having a buffoon on your side... Not always that helpful.
I've been trying not to be gullible.

Yeah, I am an idiot. Trump took back all of the stuff that he said when it appeared he had some backbone. Not falling for this crap again.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by NoNukes, posted 03-01-2018 7:49 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14346
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


(2)
Message 132 of 235 (829102)
03-03-2018 2:39 AM


The NRA helps in one way
According to a study covered in this piece at Ars Technica gun injuries drop during NRA conventions. By 20% nationwide and a whopping 63% in the hosting state.

If the NRA want to help reduce gun violence they should hold more conventions!


Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by NoNukes, posted 03-03-2018 9:27 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 133 of 235 (829104)
03-03-2018 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by PaulK
03-03-2018 2:39 AM


Re: The NRA helps in one way
If the NRA want to help reduce gun violence they should hold more conventions!

The NRA does not want to reduce gun violence. Their claim is that gun violence should be confronted with more gun violence.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by PaulK, posted 03-03-2018 2:39 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17653
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 134 of 235 (829183)
03-04-2018 8:03 AM


“I think ill probably most likely kill around 50 or 60,” Jesse Osborne declared in his Instagram group chat. “If I get lucky maybe 150.”

Six days later on September 28, 2016, using his father's .40-caliber pistol Jesse Osborne killed his father at home, then killed 6-year old Jacob Hall and wounded two other children at the Townville Elementary School in Townville, South Carolina. His gun jammed after just 12 seconds.

Jesse hadn't wanted the pistol. What he really wanted was his father's Ruger Mini-14 semiautomatic rifle, much like an AR-15. But it was locked in his father's gun safe.

Making weapons of war unavailable does make a difference.

Source: Inside an accused school shooter’s mind: A plot to kill ‘50 or 60. If I get lucky maybe 150.’

--Percy


    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17653
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 135 of 235 (830132)
03-22-2018 8:46 AM


Scientific American on Guns
The October, 2017, issue of Scientific American ran the article More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows (original title in the print version was Journey to Gunland). I'm not sure why the link works - usually Scientific American is very restrictive about what they make available online.

The article's main point is that guns make people less safe, not more, something we knew already but that is hotly contested by gun advocates who cite their own studies. This article discusses the conflicting studies and also includes many other details, most of them familiar, but it helps to keep repeating them. The article doesn't provide references to studies, but in most cases I was able to track them down and provide links.

  • At a gun range the author fires a gun for the very first time. "In seconds I went from feeling nervous, even terrified, to exhilarated and unassailable - and right then I understood why millions of Americans believe guns keep them safe."

  • Firearm assaults are 6.8 times more frequent in states with the most guns versus those with the least.

  • People with firearm access at home are twice as likely to be murdered.

  • The CDC is the primary funds source for injury research and is blocked by Congress from backing gun research.

  • Data do not matter to a great many people. It's how they feel that counts.

  • A 1993 study by Arthur Kellermann found that a gun in the home increased the odds of a murder threefold: Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home

  • Owning a gun can change behavior. Quoting from the article:

    quote:
    Researchers posit that even if keeping a gun at home does thwart the odd break-in, it may also change the gun owner's behavior in ways that put that person and his or her family more at risk. “The fact that you have a gun may mean that you do things you shouldn't be doing: you take chances you shouldn't otherwise take; you go to places where it's really not safe, but you feel safe,” says David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. This added risk may overpower any protective effects.

  • The NRA is against laws requiring secure gun storage.

  • The presence of a gun in the home results in a fivefold increase in suicide: Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership

  • Garen Wintemute, physician and gun violence researcher at the University of California, Davis:

    quote:
    "There is really uniform data to support the statement that access to firearms is associated with an increased risk of firearm-related death and injury."

  • Gun advocates argue that the higher prevalence of guns in areas of higher firearm-related death and injury is a reaction to increased crime, not a cause of greater violence. This argument fails because increases in all kinds of violence do not result in increased gun purchases.

  • While guns are not a cause of violence, and violence begetting violence occurs independent of guns, the presence of guns makes violence worse.

  • The 1995 survey of 4997 Americans by criminologists Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz at Florida State University (Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun) projected 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year.

    But the government NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey) of 55,000 households and over 100,000 individual respondents concluded only 65,000 defensive gun uses per year.

    And a Harvard study led by David Hemenway (The epidemiology of self-defense gun use: Evidence from the National Crime Victimization Surveys 2007–2011) used NCVS data to focus on crime victims and found defensive gun use occurred in less than 1% of the cases.

    Why the much higher rate of defensive gun use found by Kleck/Gertz than by the NCVS data? The article speculates:

    quote:
    Kleck and Gertz's survey and the NCVS differ in important ways that could help explain the discrepancy between them. The NCVS first establishes that someone has been the victim of an attack before asking about self-defense gun use, which weeds out yes answers from people who might, say, wave their gun around during a bar fight and call it self-defense. Kleck and Gertz's survey could overestimate self-defense use by including such ambiguous uses.

    Naturally Kleck and Gertz defend their results and strongly criticize Hemenway and the NCVS. My own personal assessment: 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year is absurd on its face. Whatever the specific reasons for the Kleck/Gertz result, obviously their survey has problems.

  • The NRA attributes the 41% drop in crime rate from 1996 to 2015 to the increase in guns, but what has actually increased is the number of people who own multiple guns. The number of people and households who own guns has actually dropped.

  • A January 2017 study (Evaluating the Impact of Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” Self-defense Law on Homicide and Suicide by Firearm) found that Florida's Stand Your Ground Laws resulted in a nearly 25% increase in homicides.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by NoNukes, posted 03-22-2018 7:43 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
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