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Author Topic:   REMIX: Who Can Be Saved?
Phat
Member
Posts: 11444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 16 of 129 (835467)
06-23-2018 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
06-23-2018 4:16 PM


Re: Ringo-round and round it goes
We need to take responsibility for our fellow man because your God doesn't.
I won't argue. To me its a bit like when my Dad taught me to ride a two-wheeler. He didn't hold the bike but he was alongside me should it wobble. You may argue that there is no Dad running along beside us so we best learn to steer ourselves. I may argue that I believe He is there...just not doing everything for us.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 4:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 06-24-2018 2:13 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15606
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 17 of 129 (835469)
06-23-2018 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
06-23-2018 4:05 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat writes:

And why would being "rescued" be against our will? Are we that stubborn that we won't allow Him to help us?


What ever happened to "free will"?

Phat writes:

Are we so proud that we feel we have outgrown our belief in Him?


Yes. Is that a bad thing?

Phat writes:

Are we so stuck on our own evolved wisdom that we think we need evidence before proceeding with a belief?


Please learn the difference between evidence and belief.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:34 PM ringo has responded
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 06-28-2018 1:14 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 18 of 129 (835472)
06-23-2018 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
06-23-2018 4:24 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat writes:

Are we so proud that we feel we have outgrown our belief in Him?


ringo writes:

Yes. Is that a bad thing?

I predict that there will again come a time within human history that will be so challenging and so tough that some will run back to the comfort of belief and in their own mind feel as if they are returning to God. Others will remain convinced that there is no magic bullet and will attempt to put Humpty Dumpty together yet again for another try at doing it ourselves.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 4:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2018 5:45 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 06-24-2018 2:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6259
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 19 of 129 (835474)
06-23-2018 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
06-23-2018 4:34 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat writes:

I predict that there will again come a time within human history that will be so challenging and so tough that some will run back to the comfort of belief and in their own mind feel as if they are returning to God. Others will remain convinced that there is no magic bullet and will attempt to put Humpty Dumpty together yet again for another try at doing it ourselves.

Why is it that you Christians are forever forecasting an apocalypse? Why the pessimism?

Is it a requirement of Christianity to believe the worst all the time? Despite, in general, things getting overall better.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by AZPaul3, posted 06-23-2018 8:43 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 11:45 PM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3479
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 20 of 129 (835482)
06-23-2018 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tangle
06-23-2018 5:45 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Come on, Tangle. Every charlatan and priest knows you can't sell bogeyman insurance without there being an ever present bogeyman. What bigger bogeyman can there be than the immanent threat of Ever-Lasting-DeathTM in the Lake of Fire© for those Unsaved®?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2018 5:45 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30079
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 21 of 129 (835500)
06-23-2018 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tangle
06-23-2018 5:45 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Why is it that you Christians are forever forecasting an apocalypse? Why the pessimism?

Because of biblical prophecy of God's judgment coming against the whole planet at the end of time, and these days it looks like it's getting closer by the minute if you know what to look for. Christians do often make the mistake of predicting the time, and that should never be done, but it does look like it's getting closer by the minute.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2018 5:45 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2018 3:26 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6259
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 22 of 129 (835506)
06-24-2018 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
06-23-2018 11:45 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Faith writes:

Because of biblical prophecy of God's judgment coming against the whole planet at the end of time, and these days it looks like it's getting closer by the minute if you know what to look for.

You people hve been saying that for 2,000 years. And over and over again, you're wrong.

Not only that, all the evidence is against you. The general direcTion is improvement. Undeniable improvement in the lives of people.

Christians do often make the mistake of predicting the time, and that should never be done

Only because it makes Christians look bloody stupid and utterly wrong, time after time. Because it's factual and ineoscapabably wrong.

but it does look like it's getting closer by the minute.

No it doesn't - things are in fact getting better. You're a weird one.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 11:45 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 9:56 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30079
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 23 of 129 (835528)
06-24-2018 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Tangle
06-24-2018 3:26 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Things getting better is due to past blessings. Spiritual effects take a long time to run their course which is shown over and over in biblical history. What we see is the increase in hatred of God and His Law and the establishment of laws actually protecting violations of God's Law. The crunch could come all of a sudden.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2018 3:26 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2018 12:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6259
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 24 of 129 (835539)
06-24-2018 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
06-24-2018 9:56 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Faith writes:

Things getting better is due to past blessings.

That's called either a flat out contradiction of your 'everything is getting worse' mantra or an attempt at having your cake and eat it. Actually both.

Spiritual effects take a long time to run their course which is shown over and over in biblical history.

What we see over history are improvements in our life and no spiritual effects at all.

What we see is the increase in hatred of God and His Law and the establishment of laws actually protecting violations of God's Law.

What we see is people getting on with their lives without worrying about supersticious nonsense. I'm totally unaware of any god hatred; simply god total absence. Like fairies.

The crunch could come all of a sudden.

But it seems that no matter how long and how hard you and your predecessors pray for it, it never happens.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 9:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15606
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 25 of 129 (835541)
06-24-2018 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
06-23-2018 4:20 PM


Re: Ringo-round and round it goes
Phat writes:

To me its a bit like when my Dad taught me to ride a two-wheeler. He didn't hold the bike but he was alongside me should it wobble.


If you're going to use the father analogy - and the Bible uses it so it's hard to escape - you should take it to its logical conclusion. Does the father prop up the son forever?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:20 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 06-24-2018 2:29 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15606
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 26 of 129 (835542)
06-24-2018 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
06-23-2018 4:34 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat writes:

I predict that there will again come a time within human history that will be so challenging and so tough that some will run back to the comfort of belief and in their own mind feel as if they are returning to God.


That's just the old no-atheists-in-foxholes ploy. In fact, I think the opposite is true: In bad times - e.g. war - people are less likely to believe in gods, not more. They are more likely to ask why a god would let such things happen. They might wish there was a god to save them but they don't really believe it will happen.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 27 of 129 (835544)
06-24-2018 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
06-24-2018 2:13 PM


Re: Ringo-round and round it goes
Does the father prop up the son forever?
As long as my Dad was alive He would have had my back should I ever have needed it. He did not coddle me, but he would never have left me to fend for myself should I have asked for his help.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 06-24-2018 2:13 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 06-24-2018 2:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15606
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 28 of 129 (835545)
06-24-2018 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
06-24-2018 2:29 PM


Re: Ringo-round and round it goes
Phat writes:

As long as my Dad was alive He would have had my back should I ever have needed it. He did not coddle me, but he would never have left me to fend for myself should I have asked for his help.


This all leads back to Message 13 where you said, "And yet you also insist that humans take responsibility."

Wouldn't your father also insist that you take responsibility?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 06-24-2018 2:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 29 of 129 (835704)
06-28-2018 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
06-23-2018 4:24 PM


ringo's stubborn insistence on being left alone
Phat writes:

And why would being "rescued" be against our will? Are we that stubborn that we won't allow Him to help us?


What ever happened to "free will"?
Your whole argument seems to be that even if God is real and loving, you will likely freely reject a relationship/communion with Him.

While I agree that it seems unfair that this dooms you (and negates true free will) I again use the analogy of oxygen. One can choose not to breathe it, but it is, in fact, the only gas that will support our life. I never figured out why you are so stubborn in regards to this growing up analogy....you seem to take pride in not needing any help whatsoever. And we all know how bad pride can be.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 4:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 06-28-2018 1:24 PM Phat has responded
 Message 31 by jar, posted 06-28-2018 4:22 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15606
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(3)
Message 30 of 129 (835705)
06-28-2018 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
06-28-2018 1:14 PM


Re: ringo's stubborn insistence on being left alone
Phat writes:

I again use the analogy of oxygen. One can choose not to breathe it, but it is, in fact, the only gas that will support our life.


Unless you can demonstrate that I can't live without your God, that's a poor analogy.

Phat writes:

I never figured out why you are so stubborn in regards to this growing up analogy....you seem to take pride in not needing any help whatsoever.


You could try paying attention to what I have told you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever. It isn't that I don't need any help whatsoever.

It's that I can't count on your God to help me.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 06-28-2018 1:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 07-28-2018 4:14 PM ringo has responded

  
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