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Author Topic:   REMIX: Who Can Be Saved?
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 31 of 129 (835708)
06-28-2018 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
06-28-2018 1:14 PM


Re: ringo's stubborn insistence on being left alone
Phat writes:

Your whole argument seems to be that even if God is real and loving, you will likely freely reject a relationship/communion with Him.

And you have never explained how someone can have a relationship/communion with God.

How do you know that your relationship is not with Satan or Allah or Ganesha or just a bad burrito?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 06-28-2018 1:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 06-29-2018 11:32 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11592
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 32 of 129 (835727)
06-29-2018 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
06-28-2018 4:22 PM


Re: ringo's stubborn insistence on being left alone
jar writes:

And you have never explained how someone can have a relationship/communion with God.

It has been explained many ways by many people, but would likely never satisfy your intellectual curiosity since you already have preconceived notions over who God is, what makes sense for you to accept, and of course your bias over the apologists and those marketing the current product. (You don't trust any of them) and yet you market a Christianity where the emphasis is on us and what we do for others, leaving God as potentially irrelevant to that charge. I have no problem with your beliefs except that you are forever questioning how God can even be known. How do I know its not satan or my stomach growling at me? I suppose in a strictly empirical sense I don't, though I trust my beliefs and intuitions. How do you know that God is unknowable? Is it because you have a pre-existing bias that the apologists and snake oil salesmen are after your wallet? Is it because your understanding of logic, reason, and reality can provide no satisfactory evidence? Do you never allow for unevidenced belief? Why must I continually answer this question?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 06-28-2018 4:22 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 06-29-2018 12:01 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 33 of 129 (835731)
06-29-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
06-29-2018 11:32 AM


why answer questions?
Phat writes:

Why must I continually answer this question?

Because you assert people avoid such a communion! But unless you can explain how such a thing is possible it is silly to claim anyone avoids it.

Phat writes:

How do you know that God is unknowable?

I don't and have never claimed such a thing. I have asked how it is possible to know such a thing and no one has ever had an answer. The Muslim says Allah in knowable. The Hindu says Ganesha is knowable. Yet neither explains how.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 06-29-2018 11:32 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 07-28-2018 4:32 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11592
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 34 of 129 (837222)
07-28-2018 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
06-28-2018 1:24 PM


Re: ringo's stubborn insistence on being left alone
ringo writes:

It's that I can't count on your God to help me.

Why?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 06-28-2018 1:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 07-29-2018 4:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11592
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 35 of 129 (837223)
07-28-2018 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
06-29-2018 12:01 PM


No Apologies
Peter Kreeft writes:

The source of evil is not God's power but mankind's freedom.


ringo writes:

And the source of man's freedom is God's power. Therefore, the source of evil is God.
And the kicker is that God said so Himself:

quote:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

jar, referring to Peter Kreeft writes:

The man is an Apologist.
Nuff Said!

It appears that jar at least has a bias against apologetics. I admit that I have a bias against unbelief...so in that sense we are both biased.

As to ringos claim that the source of evil is God, I submit the following scripture:

Deuteronomy 30:15-20 (ESV) writes:


15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God[a] that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules,\[b\] then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20 loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

So if a man decides to just live his life on his own terms rather than listening to any "God" is he worshipping other gods by default? In other words, is listening to our own internal conscience akin to worshipping another god?

Edited by Phat, : spelling


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 06-29-2018 12:01 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 07-29-2018 4:23 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15750
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 36 of 129 (837258)
07-29-2018 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
07-28-2018 4:14 PM


Re: ringo's stubborn insistence on being left alone
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

It's that I can't count on your God to help me.


Why?

Huh? You tell me why He isn't helping. You tell me why that homeless guy asks me for help instead of waiting for your God to help him. You tell me why Noah had to build his own ark.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 07-28-2018 4:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15750
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 37 of 129 (837259)
07-29-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
07-28-2018 4:32 PM


Re: No Apologies
Phat writes:

So if a man decides to just live his life on his own terms rather than listening to any "God" is he worshipping other gods by default?


That isn't what Deuteronomy 30 says, is it?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 07-28-2018 4:32 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 07-30-2018 3:55 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11592
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 38 of 129 (837349)
07-30-2018 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
07-29-2018 4:23 PM


Re: No Apologies
Well it does mention "turning to other gods." How would one hypothetically do that today?

Deut 30:11-14 writes:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

You claim that we obviously must build our own arks...but the instructions come from within. You used to always emphasize the message over the messenger...so what does this message say? That the Word is very near...in our heart. My question is then:
If a man does not listen to his own heart is he running after other gods metaphorically?
Also is an unbeliever capable of listening to this inner Word?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 07-29-2018 4:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 07-30-2018 4:41 PM Phat has responded
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 07-31-2018 12:15 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 39 of 129 (837352)
07-30-2018 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
07-30-2018 3:55 PM


Re: No Apologies
Phat writes:

Also is an unbeliever capable of listening to this inner Word?

Remember that Deuteronomy is written by authors that from a Christian perspective are unbelievers; by Jews. It is a series of lectures, three major sermons attributed to Moses and set before the Conquest of Canaan. There are three main themes; the creation of a peoples called Israel, the God of that peoples and the covenant (contract) between that God and that Peoples.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 07-30-2018 3:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 08-06-2018 3:54 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15750
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 40 of 129 (837387)
07-31-2018 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
07-30-2018 3:55 PM


Re: No Apologies
Phat writes:

Well it does mention "turning to other gods." How would one hypothetically do that today?


By listening to commentators and apologists?

Phat writes:

You used to always emphasize the message over the messenger...so what does this message say?


Build an ark. Not pray for an ark or hope for an ark in the next life. Build one now. If that includes a sore back and bashed fingers, so be it.

Phat writes:

Also is an unbeliever capable of listening to this inner Word?


The question is, are you capable?

If God was actually in communion with you, what would He be saying?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 07-30-2018 3:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11592
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 41 of 129 (837593)
08-06-2018 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
07-30-2018 4:41 PM


Re: No Apologies
A good word about Deuteronomy. What about whom Jesus was addressing in Matthew?
jar writes:

"Do you have to acknowledge GOD or even believe in GOD to Love GOD?"

IMHO and according to the Bible, the answer is "No. You can love GOD without acknowledging GOD or even if you deny GOD's very existence."

Keep in mind, however, that Jesus was addressing men who acknowledged God and who did not deny His existence. It says metaphorically that He addresses all nations, but He is talking with and teaching people whom did believe in God.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 07-30-2018 4:41 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 08-06-2018 3:57 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 42 of 129 (837594)
08-06-2018 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
08-06-2018 3:54 PM


Re: No Apologies
Jesus was addressing folk that did not believe Jesus was God.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 08-06-2018 3:54 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 08-06-2018 4:23 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11592
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 43 of 129 (837597)
08-06-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
08-06-2018 3:57 PM


Re: No Apologies
OK I think I get your point. You are essentially saying that Jesus emphasized to them what they should do for others and not worry so much about pleasing Him.

But lets assume your basic argument concening the later attempts to change the Great Commission. What motives would the author of John have had regarding teaching what he did?

What motives would Paul have had? How do these motives stand up in the overall message which they espoused?

In other words, why did the message have to be changed? And why did the early church approve of the additions?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 08-06-2018 3:57 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 08-06-2018 4:27 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 44 of 129 (837600)
08-06-2018 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
08-06-2018 4:23 PM


Re: No Apologies
Phat writes:

But lets assume your basic argument concening the later attempts to change the Great Commission. What motives would the author of John have had regarding teaching what he did?

What motives would Paul have had? How do these motives stand up in the overall message which they espoused?

In other words, why did the message have to be changed? And why did the early church approve of the additions?

Let's get the basics straight; there were not attempts to change the Great Commission, according to what was written the Great Commission was changed.

And how could anyone know what the motives of the authors of the stories were and why would their motives even matter?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 08-06-2018 4:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 08-06-2018 4:33 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11592
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 45 of 129 (837604)
08-06-2018 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
08-06-2018 4:27 PM


Re: No Apologies
...how could anyone know what the motives of the authors of the stories were and why would their motives even matter?

How would the motives of the Sheep and Goat sermon matter any more, then?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 08-06-2018 4:27 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 08-06-2018 4:38 PM Phat has responded

  
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