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Author Topic:   REMIX: Who Can Be Saved?
Phat
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Posts: 11130
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 61 of 111 (839200)
09-05-2018 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
09-05-2018 5:46 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Her examples do emphasize the doctrine of hereditary sin, however. An Episcopal Dictionary Of The Church "taken from the dogma of your cult"....

Anglican formularies have tended to speak of sanctification as the process of God's work within us by means of which we grow into the fullness of the redeemed life. In the 1979 BCP, sanctification has been closely associated with the Holy Eucharist, as in the prayer of thanksgiving: "Sanctify us also that we may faithfully receive this holy Sacrament, and serve you in unity, constancy, and peace; and at the last day bring us with all your saints into the joy of your eternal kingdom" (Eucharistic Prayer A, BCP, p. 363); and: "We pray you, gracious God, to send your Holy Spirit upon these gifts that they may be the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and his Blood of the new Covenant. Unite us to your Son in his sacrifice, that we may be acceptable through him, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit" (Eucharistic Prayer B, BCP, p. 369).

Edited by Phat, : added


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

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 Message 60 by jar, posted 09-05-2018 5:46 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 09-05-2018 9:25 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30837
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 62 of 111 (839201)
09-05-2018 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
09-05-2018 8:58 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

Her examples do emphasize the doctrine of hereditary sin, however.

Learn to read, Phat.

There is NOTHING in what you quoted about hereditary sin or the fall or anything related to the Genesis 2&3 fable.

Once again, you are simply trying to find and failing to find support for your position.

"Sanctify us also that we may faithfully receive this holy Sacrament, and serve you in unity, constancy, and peace; and at the last day bring us with all your saints into the joy of your eternal kingdom"

Notice it talks about serving, stuff YOU do, not what others long dead did.

But if you had fully read your link you would come across both the origin of the dogma of Original Sin (which you and I have discussed in the past) as well as the modern understanding.

quote:
The shared sinful condition of all humanity. This Christian doctrine is drawn from the Pauline writings, such as Rom 5:12-19 and 1 Cor 15:21-22, which suggest that humanity shares by nature in the fall of Adam described in Gn 3. Paul likewise urges that the consequences for humanity of Adam's fall are to be reversed through saving participation in Christ's victory over sin and death.

So two passages from Paul are what is used to justify the whole concept of Original Sin and if you actually go and read those passages they misrepresent what is actually written in Genesis 2&3.

Reading on you would have seen:

quote:
Although the consequences of original sin have not been emphasized as strongly in Anglicanism as in other Protestant traditions, Article IX of the Articles of Religion, "Of Original or Birth-Sin," states that "man is very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil"

Again, even there it talks about the consequences of the individual's behavior and nature, not what those long dead might have done or even what the individual actually does.

Your source ended with:

quote:
Original sin may be understood as humanity's innate self-centeredness. A consequence of this condition is human weakness and fallibility relative to sin. Another consequence is the influence of human sinfulness in our history and environment, to which we are subjected from birth. These influences all serve to restrict the actual freedom of moral choices, requiring us to look to God for hope and salvation.

Again, if you look at the whole of the Episcopal Church's position it is that we are charged to rise above any innate self-centerdness.

Salvation if it should happen in the theological context will be after one is dead. What is needed in reality is an attempt to improve the actual living conditions for those folk not dead.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 8:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 10:19 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11130
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 63 of 111 (839207)
09-05-2018 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
09-05-2018 9:25 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Good response! I actually did read all of what you quoted. Thanks for reemphasizing it though.

jar writes:

Reading on you would have seen:

quote:
Although the consequences of original sin have not been emphasized as strongly in Anglicanism as in other Protestant traditions, Article IX of the Articles of Religion, "Of Original or Birth-Sin," states that "man is very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil"

Again, even there it talks about the consequences of the individual's behavior and nature, not what those long dead might have done or even what the individual actually does.


Exactly! I am also talking about behavior and nature. I don't simply expect God to rescue me without also changing me. Again, what I find irritating about your arguments is primarily the way that you verbally belittle your opponents.
jar writes:

Again, if you look at the whole of the Episcopal Church's position it is that we are charged to rise above any innate self-centeredness.

So my question to you is this:

Can we rise above our innate self-centeredness, arrogance, and character without Gods help?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 09-05-2018 9:25 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 09-05-2018 10:28 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30837
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 64 of 111 (839209)
09-05-2018 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
09-05-2018 10:19 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

Can we rise above our innate self-centeredness, arrogance, and character without Gods help?

If we are to succeed then yes, regardless of whether or not we get any help we need to rise above our innate self-centeredness.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 10:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 10:55 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11130
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 65 of 111 (839212)
09-05-2018 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
09-05-2018 10:28 AM


I've Fallen And I Can't Get Up!
Just agreeing on a global consensus for addressing global warming will require herculean sacrifice from every nation...be they spiritual or secular.

I predict that we will see some very challenging times--though I refuse to believe that we are facing the last days of humanity here on the planet. I will say that we could collectively become victims of a self-fulfilling prophecy if we fight amongst ourselves as to what everyone should believe.

You have said before that Jesus was a failed Messiah, but the words that He said will be used to justify many actions by many people. Let's just hope that it all works out.

It is ironic that the common dogma is fear of a unified one world government that is a secular humanist one and which minimizes the need for Jesus or religion in general. How ironic when, in fact, there will need to be a unified global consensus in order to deal with major problems. Whether or not this fulfills the prophetic interpretations of the apologists or becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy remains to be seen.

Edited by Phat, : clarification


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 09-05-2018 10:28 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 66 of 111 (839213)
09-05-2018 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
09-05-2018 5:46 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
All of them are about rescuing us from our fallen condition of spiritual darkness into the Kingdom of God and there are lots more verses about how the rescue is accomplished through His blood. May dig them up eventually.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 09-05-2018 5:46 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 09-05-2018 12:45 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 09-05-2018 1:04 PM Faith has responded
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 09-05-2018 1:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30837
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 67 of 111 (839218)
09-05-2018 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
09-05-2018 11:34 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
But there is no such thing as a fallen position.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 11:34 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 68 of 111 (839220)
09-05-2018 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
09-05-2018 11:34 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

All of them are about rescuing us from our fallen condition....


The mistake you make is in thinking of "The Fall" as a historical event. It's actually a description of the imperfect condition that mankind has always been in. We don't need to be "rescued" from anything. We just need to learn how to deal with our condition. The knowledge of good and evil, which lifted us closer to God, is one step in that learning process.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 11:34 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 1:16 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 69 of 111 (839221)
09-05-2018 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
09-05-2018 11:34 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
double post

Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 11:34 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 70 of 111 (839222)
09-05-2018 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
09-05-2018 1:04 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 09-05-2018 1:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 09-05-2018 1:32 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 71 of 111 (839223)
09-05-2018 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
09-05-2018 1:16 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


How does that address what I said? "The Fall" was not a historical event (nor was it a fall). The "one man" was not a historical personage. Romans refers to the metaphor in Genesis.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 1:16 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 1:37 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 72 of 111 (839224)
09-05-2018 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
09-05-2018 1:32 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Yeah, well if you are just going to make the words mean what you want them to mean there's no answer to you, is there? The one man is clearly presented as a historical personage which tells us that the passage in Genesis is historical and not a metaphor.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 09-05-2018 1:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 09-05-2018 1:46 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 73 of 111 (839225)
09-05-2018 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
09-05-2018 1:37 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

The one man is clearly presented as a historical personage which tells us that the passage in Genesis is historical and not a metaphor.


On the contrary, the talking snake should be your first clue. No talking snakes in history.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 1:37 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 5:18 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29527
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 74 of 111 (839271)
09-05-2018 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
09-05-2018 1:46 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Both a talking snake and a talking donkey in scripture though. Nothing is impossible with God. The man is a man and the story in Eden is historical.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 09-05-2018 1:46 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 09-05-2018 5:42 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 75 of 111 (839272)
09-05-2018 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
09-05-2018 5:18 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

Both a talking snake and a talking donkey in scripture though. Nothing is impossible with God.


But you said it was "presented" as history. Clearly it is not. History is never presented with talking snakes or talkimg donkeys. It is presented either as a miracle or as a metaphor or as a fairy tale.

Faith writes:

The man is a man and the story in Eden is historical.


The other problem with that is that there was never a time in history when there was only one man and one woman. It's biologically impossible. Therefore, it's another miracle or another metaphor or another fairy tale.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 5:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 5:50 PM ringo has responded
 Message 77 by jar, posted 09-05-2018 5:52 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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