Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 107 (8805 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-13-2017 12:24 AM
330 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 824,060 Year: 28,666/21,208 Month: 732/1,847 Week: 107/475 Day: 0/17 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
234Next
Author Topic:   Michael Servetus was burnt at the stake in Calvin's Geneva in 1553
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 58 (824052)
11-21-2017 10:16 PM


He rejected the Trinity.

What an "evil man"!

quote:

Remembering Servetus: The “One God” Movement Among Evangelical Christians

Christian Origins / October 8, 2017

Michael Servetus (aka Miguel Serveto) is surely one of the most remarkable men of history, though he is largely unknown in general circles. He was born in Spain in 1511 and died in 1553, at age 42, burnt at the stake as a heretic by John Calvin’s Geneva Council. He was a brilliant scientist and his field was primarily medicine, but it was his theological views that led to his universal condemnation by both Catholics and Protestants.

https://jamestabor.com/...ement-among-evangelical-christians


This might explain why today's Trinitarians believe the way they do.

They have been forced and/or brainwashed by the Catholic and Protestant authorities.

The simple fact of the matter is that nearly every Trinitarian you know is just a follower of the popular culture imposed from the higher powers.

They would NOT have the Trinitarian views if we had freedom of religion in ages past.

They might not even be Christian.

The brainwashing goes on.

QUESTION.

(This applies to ethnic Christian posters)

When did you ever start to question the Trinity?

What caused you to study the history and the Bible for yourself?

Did it even occur to you that the Trinity was generally unbiblical (though it very much depended on which "Bible" one used if one wants to say that it is completely unbiblical) in the early Christian centuries?

Where are you on your journey of discovery?


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by NoNukes, posted 11-21-2017 11:15 PM LamarkNewAge has responded
 Message 4 by AdminPhat, posted 11-21-2017 11:25 PM LamarkNewAge has responded
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 11-22-2017 2:34 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 11-22-2017 4:59 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 2 of 58 (824054)
11-21-2017 10:49 PM


Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything.

--Robert A. Heinlein


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 3 of 58 (824055)
11-21-2017 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
11-21-2017 10:16 PM


This might explain why today's Trinitarians believe the way they do.

They have been forced and/or brainwashed by the Catholic and Protestant authorities.

Is it? As your example, you cite a 16th-century case of a person being burned as a heretic. Then you argue (assert, say, whatever) that you understand why Catholics and Protestants are Trinitarians today.

I want to direct my response to your argument rather than to you as a person. The problem with trying to do so is that the proper characterization of your argument would be a statement about your intelligence.

Instead of expressing my opinion, I am going to ask you if you have a better argument?

Did it even occur to you that the Trinity was generally unbiblical

Folks here have made that particular argument many times. Other folks have attempted to counter those arguments with cites to the Bible. Perhaps you should take a look in the archives.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-21-2017 10:16 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 12:07 PM NoNukes has responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1829
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4 of 58 (824056)
11-21-2017 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
11-21-2017 10:16 PM


Warning
Please dont put religious topics in the Coffeehouse to avoid the PNT process.

  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
  • Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation.
  • The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-21-2017 10:16 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 12:09 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

        
    LamarkNewAge
    Member
    Posts: 1024
    Joined: 12-22-2015
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 5 of 58 (824069)
    11-22-2017 12:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 3 by NoNukes
    11-21-2017 11:15 PM


    Pay attention.
    quote:

    Is it? As your example, you cite a 16th-century case of a person being burned as a heretic. Then you argue (assert, say, whatever) that you understand why Catholics and Protestants are Trinitarians today.

    I want to direct my response to your argument rather than to you as a person. The problem with trying to do so is that the proper characterization of your argument would be a statement about your intelligence.

    Instead of expressing my opinion, I am going to ask you if you have a better argument?


    I was noticing that the vast majority of official "churches" have the exact same view that reflect what was imposed from 380 till AFTER THE REFORMATION of the 16th century.

    (It is a fact that something like 80% or 90% of all members of various religions live in a country where that is the majority religion there, DESPITE the overall numbers worldwide that indicate pluralistic views at large.)

    I was interested in when people began to question their authorities (churches, seminaries, etc.) and go back to (first) the Bible and second, the historical record.

    quote:

    Folks here have made that particular argument many times. Other folks have attempted to counter those arguments with cites to the Bible. Perhaps you should take a look in the archives.

    If you knew how to pay attention, then you would see that I (for starters) didn't say todays Bible was decisive (due to contradictory books from various sources).

    And, again, I was asking about when people began to question what their authorities told them to believe.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by NoNukes, posted 11-21-2017 11:15 PM NoNukes has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 12 by NoNukes, posted 11-22-2017 4:14 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

        
    LamarkNewAge
    Member
    Posts: 1024
    Joined: 12-22-2015
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 6 of 58 (824070)
    11-22-2017 12:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 4 by AdminPhat
    11-21-2017 11:25 PM


    Re: Warning
    [/quote]
    Please dont put religious topics in the Coffeehouse to avoid the PNT process.
    [/quote]

    This was meant to be a discussion about when people began to question authority.

    More of a personal thing.

    For others.

    And I wasn't going to participate in anything that had anything whatsoever to do about me btw.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by AdminPhat, posted 11-21-2017 11:25 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 8 by Phat, posted 11-22-2017 12:48 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

        
    LamarkNewAge
    Member
    Posts: 1024
    Joined: 12-22-2015
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 7 of 58 (824072)
    11-22-2017 12:18 PM


    Clarification on "The Bible"
    quote:

    Did it even occur to you that the Trinity was generally unbiblical (though it very much depended on which "Bible" one used if one wants to say that it is completely unbiblical) in the early Christian centuries?

    There was a ton of diversity in the early centuries.

    I was saying that back then, a minority would have had the Trinitarian views.

    BACK THEN.


    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by Phat, posted 11-22-2017 12:56 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10230
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 8 of 58 (824075)
    11-22-2017 12:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 6 by LamarkNewAge
    11-22-2017 12:09 PM


    Re: Warning
    quote:

    Please don't put religious topics in the Coffeehouse to avoid the PNT process.


    LNA writes:

    This was meant to be a discussion about when people began to question authority.

    OK...

    More of a personal thing.
    If so, there is no need to clutter it up with your incessant googling sources, cutting, and pasting. If its personal, perhaps a better topic title and a bit less googling, cutting, and pasting.

    For others.
    Avoiding the PNT process is questioning authority. At least you are honest about that!

    And I wasn't going to participate in anything that had anything whatsoever to do about me btw.
    In contrast, most of my topics are like that. OK, viva la diversity...let the personal discussion commence. Use more of your own words, however. So far you are doing rather well.....

    Edited by Phat, : spelling


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 12:09 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10230
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 9 of 58 (824076)
    11-22-2017 12:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 7 by LamarkNewAge
    11-22-2017 12:18 PM


    Re: Clarification on "The Bible"
    LNA writes:

    I was saying that back then, a minority would have had the Trinitarian views.

    BACK THEN.

    Which gives credit to jars basic argument concerning John and the redacted new religion of paul vs the traditional one of Jesus. Personally, I see nothing wrong with a trinitarian explanation for a monotheistic belief. the trouble starts when confusion arises over the need of having a trinity in the first place.

    One argument centers over jesus divinity and the importance of such a belief.

    Another focuses on Mans ability to commune (or get personal) with GOD...which is what jar and i are discussing now.

    LNA, are you still interested in zoroastrianism? What does that belief have to say about the idea of a personal relationship with GOD and whether it is possible or desireable to obtain?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 12:18 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 1:10 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    LamarkNewAge
    Member
    Posts: 1024
    Joined: 12-22-2015
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 10 of 58 (824078)
    11-22-2017 1:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
    11-22-2017 12:56 PM


    Re: Clarification on "The Bible"
    (I had no idea there were rules against Coffee House topics. I didn't even know (unless I knew and forgot) that I could post a new topic so easily in the CH until YOU voluntarily told me a few weeks ago)

    I was asking when people began to question authority.

    Most Christians (like 80%) live in majority Christian nations.

    And they all have imposed Trinitarian views on people.

    When did you start to question the issue?

    UNDERSTAND SOMETHING.

    The main reason I asked abut "The Bible" was because the average person (minus brainwashing) reading the New Testament chronologically ( from Matthew, Mark, Luke first then John, Acts, etc.) would constantly see the "Son of God" description of Jesus, and thus not naturally reach the view that Jesus was God.

    I wasn't talking about what the overall 27 book European Protestant/Roman Catholic New Testament could be interpreted as saying when read with the pre-imposed "Jesus is God" view.

    This needs to be clear.

    I am asking when authority was questioned (in your mind).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Phat, posted 11-22-2017 12:56 PM Phat has not yet responded

        
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13965
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.7


    (4)
    Message 11 of 58 (824086)
    11-22-2017 2:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
    11-21-2017 10:16 PM


    LamarkNewAge writes:

    Where are you on your journey of discovery?


    I'm camped out in the ditch watching the traffic go by.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-21-2017 10:16 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 23 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-23-2017 12:00 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

      
    NoNukes
    Member
    Posts: 10116
    From: Central NC USA
    Joined: 08-13-2010
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 12 of 58 (824098)
    11-22-2017 4:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 5 by LamarkNewAge
    11-22-2017 12:07 PM


    Re: Pay attention.
    I was noticing that the vast majority of official "churches" have the exact same view that reflect what was imposed from 380 till AFTER THE REFORMATION of the 16th century.

    You actually said something quite a bit more ridiculous than that. You said that people were brainwashed and you cited a 16th century burning at the stake as some kind of pattern. Why lie and claim that you did something else? We can all read your posts.

    If you knew how to pay attention, then you would see that I (for starters) didn't say todays Bible was decisive (due to contradictory books from various sources).

    Sigh. Here is what you did say.

    Did it even occur to you that the Trinity was generally unbiblical

    Answer. Yes, the question has been considered here and addressed on multiple occasions. Surely you are not trying to argue that the question of whether the Trinity is "generally unbiblical" is not a question on which the Bible is decisive.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

    We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

    Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

    I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 12:07 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 13 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 4:29 PM NoNukes has responded

        
    LamarkNewAge
    Member
    Posts: 1024
    Joined: 12-22-2015
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 13 of 58 (824102)
    11-22-2017 4:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by NoNukes
    11-22-2017 4:14 PM


    Re: Pay attention. Again pay attention NoNukes.
    I will not quote you, but will give a general response.

    I was asking WHEN it was that somebody FIRST noticed that they jumped the gun in uncritically believing the entire New Testament spoke of Jesus as "God" when, in fact, the first several Gospels called him the "Son of God".

    It wasn't about what exactly was said in every single part of the current New Testament (and how one could read back into, for example, Matthew's Gospel)

    It had to do with cultural and societal brainwashing that, by and large, dictates ones reading/understanding of scripture from the very first moment "the Good Book" gets cracked.

    You failed to understand my IRREFUTABLE point.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by NoNukes, posted 11-22-2017 4:14 PM NoNukes has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 15 by Phat, posted 11-22-2017 5:01 PM LamarkNewAge has responded
     Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 11-22-2017 7:06 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10230
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 14 of 58 (824106)
    11-22-2017 4:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
    11-21-2017 10:16 PM


    Ethnic Replies Only?
    LNA writes:

    QUESTION.

    (This applies to ethnic Christian posters)

    When did you ever start to question the Trinity?

    Is the question directed only to those who are not identified with the majority culture which unfortunately still exists in our world today? (Though it is diminishing)


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-21-2017 10:16 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10230
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 15 of 58 (824108)
    11-22-2017 5:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by LamarkNewAge
    11-22-2017 4:29 PM


    Re: Pay attention. Again pay attention NoNukes.
    LNA writes:

    I was asking WHEN it was that somebody FIRST noticed that they jumped the gun in uncritically believing the entire New Testament spoke of Jesus as "God" when, in fact, the first several Gospels called him the "Son of God".

    It wasn't about what exactly was said in every single part of the current New Testament (and how one could read back into, for example, Matthew's Gospel)

    It had to do with cultural and societal brainwashing that, by and large, dictates ones reading/understanding of scripture from the very first moment "the Good Book" gets cracked.

    You failed to understand my IRREFUTABLE point.

    You are starting to sound a bit authoritarian. Which begs the question of precisely who among us has been brainwashed. Or perhaps you can elaborate on why your point is irrefutable and what specifically it is.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 4:29 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 16 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 5:13 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    1
    234Next
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017