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Author Topic:   Michael Servetus was burnt at the stake in Calvin's Geneva in 1553
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 58 (824109)
11-22-2017 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
11-22-2017 5:01 PM


Can we all agree that Jesus is said to be the "Son of God" in the Bible?
I know that certain Trinitarian individuals put study into the issue (I don't mean simply reading the Gospel of John), but by then, there is often a total brainwashing factor still at play.

Jesus is already assumed to be God when most Christians start to read the Bible.

People who never attend church (and who have few religious conversations) are more likely to have heard about the "Son of God" and thus won't be as brainwashed (they might even find it slightly odd AT FIRST to hear that "Jesus is God"). But it won't take long for them to be brainwashed, once a religious conversation starts (where another brainwashed person corrects them quickly).

The fact of the matter is that the Bible isn't where people get their ideas from.

And people read into the Bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 11-22-2017 5:01 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10119
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 17 of 58 (824118)
11-22-2017 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 4:29 PM


Re: Pay attention. Again pay attention NoNukes.
I will not quote you, but will give a general response.

On the other hand, I quote you extensively when making my points about what you've put up here.

You failed to understand my IRREFUTABLE point.

LNA I read the nonsense you post. Apparently, you don't have an answer for any of my questions, so you fall back to the tactic of typing denials about what you have posted followed by declaring that you have won something.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 4:29 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 58 (824119)
11-22-2017 7:57 PM


I found a NoNukes quote on the issue!
He told me to go look in archives.

I typed "Elkesaites reincarnation" into google and found my old reincarnation thread on the first page of hits. (it is in top five if spelled elcesaites and top 8 if elkesaites)

quote:

Elcesaites - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elcesaites

The Elcesaites, Elkasaites, Elkesaites or Elchasaites were an ancient Jewish Christian sect in Sassanid southern Mesopotamia. The sect may be related to the Ebionites. The Elcesaites are discussed by Epiphanius and in pseudo-Clementine literature.

The Secret Legacy of Jesus: The Judaic Teachings That Passed from ...

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=159477921X

Jeffrey J. Bütz - 2009 - ‎Body, Mind & Spirit
42 While this clear belief in reincarnation may sound startling, there is evidence even within the New Testament that first-century Jews had some kind of belief in reincarnation.43 This would all indicate that the Elkesaites were Ebionites who had evolved in a more Gnostic direction. For some time, Gnosticism had been ...

Rome in the East: The Transformation of an Empire

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1317296346

Warwick Ball - 2016 - ‎History
The Bardaisanites have already been commented upon. The Elkesaites were another. Their sect was founded by their prophet Elkesai, who was supposedly a reincarnation of Jesus. Indeed, the Elkesaite belief in reincarnation recalls the possible Edessan links with Buddhism already mentioned.298 It was a monotheistic ...

Faith and Thought - Volume 31 - Page 243 - Google Books Result

https://books.google.com/books?id=ekY-AQAAMAAJ

1899 - ‎Religion and science
They were also akin in their teaching to the Elkesaites of the third century—an Essene Gnostic sect accepting Elxai as a prophet, as did also the Ebionites of Bashan (Hippol ix, 13; Epiphanius xix, 2-5). Elxai accepted the Jewish system of sacrifice, and regarded Christ as a reincarnation of Adam. The Elkesaite Eucharist ...

A History of the Early Church to AD 500 - Google Books Result

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1134948182

John William Charles Wand - 2008 - ‎History
Jesus, the Messiah, was a reincarnation of Adam, and as further reincarnations were possible Christianity could not be looked upon as the final religion. The Elkesaites rejected sacrifices, but they retained much of Judaism, including circumcision, the Sabbath, and purificatory ablutions; and together with this they ...

Aufstieg und Niedergang der römischen Welt: Geschichte und Kultur ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=kFloAAAAMAAJ

Hildegard Temporini - 1992 - ‎Rome
At the end of 6.25 Hippolytus introduces the doctrine of reincarnation, invoking the standard idea of the body as the tomb of the soul, and ascribes to Plato, obviously on the basis of the 'Phadeo', the view that philosophy is the separation ... At 9.14.1 the Elkesaites are said to have taken over this belief from the Pythagoreans.

The Cambridge History of Judaism: The early Roman period

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0521243777

William David Davies, ‎Louis Finkelstein, ‎William Horbury - 1984 - ‎History
The doctrine of the reincarnation of the Logos or the 'true Prophet' comes from other parts of this text (86, 87); on this, cf. Henrichs and ... According to the CMC the Elkesaites refrained from eating bread made from wheat (87f, Sgf, 91 f) and had vegetarian inclinations, but Manichaean interpretation may play a part in this.

EvC Forum: Did Jesus teach reincarnation?

www.evcforum.net › Board Administration › Proposed New Topics

Elkesaites. A Jewish Christian group which arose c. 100 CE in the country east of the Jordan, having affinities with the *Ebionites (e. g. in their *asceticism and in their use of only the gospel of *Matthew) and deriving their name from Elkesai who received a revelation from an angel 96 miles tall. Mani (see MANICHAEISM) ...

MANICHAEISM) ...

[PDF]JEWISH CHRISTIANITY IN THE EARLY CHURCH Kenneth W ...

www.saintnicks.com/...ianity%20in%20the%20Early%20Church.pdf

by KW Howard - ‎1993 - ‎Cited by 1 - ‎Related articles
Mar 15, 1993 - the Elkesaites that it would have bean unlikely that the Nazarenes would ever have adopted the Book of. Elxai.162 Elkesaite Christology was more Pythagorean in nature, including concepts (e.g., reincarnation) foreign to the Nazarenes.163 Epiphanius was known for his attempts to develop a line of ...

Elkesaite - WikiVisually

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Elkesaite

Hippolytus' commentary starts in Book 10 Chapter 8; in his next section Hippolytus recounts that Alcibiades teaches the natural birth, preexistence and reincarnation of Christ which may relate, per Louis Ginzberg (1906) to the kabbala concept of Adam kadmon, and also that Alcibiades teaches circumcision and the Law of ...


Look at the results if you type in "elkesai reincarnation"

EVC is number 1!

quote:

EvC Forum: Did Jesus teach reincarnation?

www.evcforum.net › Social and Religious Issues › Faith and Belief

100 CE in the country east of the Jordan, having affinities with the *Ebionites (e. g. in their *asceticism and in their use of only the gospel of *Matthew) and deriving their name from Elkesai who received a revelation from an angel 96 miles tall. Mani (see MANICHAEISM) belonged to an Elkesaite community in S. Babylon ...

Elcesaites - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elcesaites

Epiphanius mentions as Elkesai's brother a man called Jekseos (Iεξέος in Hæreses, xix. 1), and explains the brother's name as being derived from the Hebrew for "hidden power" and Elkesai as "the hidden God." Epiphanius records that the saints of the Elcesaites were two women; Martha ("mistress") and Marthana ("our ...

Rome in the East: The Transformation of an Empire

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1317296346

Warwick Ball - 2016 - ‎History
The Bardaisanites have already been commented upon. The Elkesaites were another. Their sect was founded by their prophet Elkesai, who was supposedly a reincarnation of Jesus. Indeed, the Elkesaite belief in reincarnation recalls the possible Edessan links with Buddhism already mentioned.298 It was a monotheistic ...

The Secret Legacy of Jesus: The Judaic Teachings That Passed from ...

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=159477921X

Jeffrey J. Bütz - 2009 - ‎Body, Mind & Spirit
One other unique aspect of their teaching is given by Hippolytus, who reports that Elkesai asserted “that Christ was not for the first time on earth when born of a ... 42 While this clear belief in reincarnation may sound startling, there is evidence even within the New Testament that first-century Jews had some kind of belief in ...

Gospel of Peter | Commentaries - The Mirrored Bridal Chamber

www.themirroredbridalchamber.com/...ies/gospel-of-peter.html

Epiphanius even defines 'Elkesai' as meaning 'Hidden God'. They reject Paul and the Prophets like the Samaritans but pray towards Jerusalem and accept the Law and circumcision. They accept the natural birth of Jesus, his pre-existence, and the reincarnation of Christ. They condemned virginity and made marriage ...

The Cambridge History of Judaism: The early Roman period

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0521243777

William David Davies, ‎Louis Finkelstein, ‎William Horbury - 1984 - ‎History
The doctrine of the reincarnation of the Logos or the 'true Prophet' comes from other parts of this text (86, 87); on this, cf. Henrichs and Koenen, ZPE ... 68-91, Syro-Mesopotamian Gnosis and Jewish Tradition (Leiden 1996), and by J. M. Baumgarten The Book of Elkesai and Merkabah Mysticism', JSJ 17 (1986), pp. 213—23.

THE ELIMINATOR; OR, SKELETON KEYS TO SACERDOTAL ...

gutenberg.polytechnic.edu.na/3/9/2/6/39268/39268-0.txt

Jesus having asked the twelve apostles who he was said to be, they reply: the “reincarnation” of this or that prophet, as it was believed that such rebirth was usual among men. Peter then avows that he is the ...... Hippolytus informs us that Elkesai said the Christ born of a Virgin was _œonian_. The Elkesites maintained that ...

[PDF]Hidden Wisdom - Bharath Institute of Higher Education and Research

ebooks.bharathuniv.ac.in/gdlc1/gdlc4/Arts_and_Science.../Hidden%20Wisdom.pdf
J.M. Baumgarten, “The Book of Elkesai and Merkabah Mysticism”, in Proceedings of the Eighth World Congress of Jewish Studies, Section C (Jerusalem, 1983), ...... question because they believed that the doctrine of reincarnation was true, since it was consistent with the tradition of their fathers and in no way different from ...

Elcesaites - Search Wiki Articles

www.wiki30.com/wa?s=Elcesaites

The name of the sect derives the name from the alleged founder: Elchasi (Hλχασΐ, in Hippolytus), Elksai ('Hλξαί in Epiphanius), or Elkesai (Ελκεσαΐ in Eusebius, ... In his next section Hippolytus recounts that Alciabides teaches the natural birth, preexistence and reincarnation of Christ which may relate, per Louis Ginzberg ...

Illuminati - Southern American Marketing

www.samliquidation.com/illuminati.htm

As proof that the child was the reincarnated Nimrod, only taking the form of a child, Semiramis claimed that she witnessed an evergreen branch grow out of a dead log in one night, the same night the ...... He calls himself the manifested power of the great hidden Deity ("Hel Kisai" = "Elkesai" in Gnostic lore; "Recognitiones," I.


the goodle page says there are over 7000 pages

Now for NoNukes in the thread

message 130

quote:

I had not given this idea much thought. I have always taken for granted Paul's belief in the divinity of Jesus. But apparently this concept is difficult to show directly. The link below is to an argument making the case that Paul believed that Jesus was God.

https://carm.org/paul-think-jesus-was-god


message 136

quote:

It turns out that the actual evidence that Paul believed that Jesus was God is rather thin. The actual best verse I saw quoted in the article is the argument that Paul called Jesus the Creator. I also spent some time online looking at other arguments.

In the end, I conclude that even if Paul's opinion is not conclusive, Paul is just one opinion and my own opinion does not change just because of what I can or cannot find Paul to say.


What does this prove?

NoNukes says he never gave possible un-trinitarian views of Paul much thought.

It backs up my previous point or not?


Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by NoNukes, posted 11-22-2017 8:37 PM LamarkNewAge has responded
 Message 20 by Coyote, posted 11-22-2017 10:02 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10119
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 19 of 58 (824123)
11-22-2017 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 7:57 PM


Re: I found a NoNukes quote on the issue!
NoNukes says he never gave possible un-trinitarian views of Paul much thought.

Paul was not a Trinitarian. Believing in the deity of Christ is an essential part of Trinitarianism, but it is not the entire doctrine. In fact, even Arianism incorporates the belief that Jesus was the son of God. In my opinion, Paul had very little to say about the issue of Trinitarianism, but you are welcome to demonstrate otherwise.

My personal belief, one I have expressed here before is that the entire question about the Trinity is a non-issue because it is neither Biblical nor essential for salvation through Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, you seem to be somewhat confused. Perhaps I should have stayed out of this and let in become yet another LNA ranting space without opposition.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 7:57 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 10:15 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 20 of 58 (824125)
11-22-2017 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 7:57 PM


Re: I found a NoNukes quote on the issue!
Suggestion: knock off the massive multiple page posts. Nobody reads them anyway.

Stick to a very few salient points and leave the shotgun approach to duck hunters.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 7:57 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 10:24 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 58 (824127)
11-22-2017 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by NoNukes
11-22-2017 8:37 PM


NoNukes admits he was brainwashed! (but only old post shows it)
quote:

On the other hand, you seem to be somewhat confused

Lay your cards on the table since you constantly like to mouth off.

I have done what you asked.

I proved that you never gave it much thought.

You admitted you were brainwashed (but won't admit it now, nor will you admit that I just proved it).

quote:

I had not given this idea much thought. I have always taken for granted Paul's belief in the divinity of Jesus.

I know that you came to see a distinction between being "divine" and the same thing as God, but that wasn't what you probably meant when you posted above.

quote:

Perhaps I should have stayed out of this and let in become yet another LNA ranting space without opposition.

You hate learning.

You were angry to find out that the Hillary campaign actually was part of a DNC scheme to manipulate the primary schedule (debates, state primary days, etc.)

It isn't my fault you prefer ignorance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by NoNukes, posted 11-22-2017 8:37 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by NoNukes, posted 11-23-2017 9:35 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 58 (824128)
11-22-2017 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Coyote
11-22-2017 10:02 PM


Re: I found a NoNukes quote on the issue!
quote:

Suggestion: knock off the massive multiple page posts. Nobody reads them anyway.
Stick to a very few salient points and leave the shotgun approach to duck hunters.

I am starting to think that many DO READ MY POSTS. (Wasn't so sure before)

I put "Manichean reincarnation" into google (55,000 page hits) and my Jesus reincarnation thread was at page 7.

"Manicheans reincarnation" was on page 7 ( 39,000 page hits total)

"Jesus teach reincarnation" had 416,000 page hits and my EVC thread was on page 3

"Jesus taught reincarnation Elijah" had 113,000 page hits and my thread was on page 5

"Elkesaite reincarnation" was on first page (there were over 7000 hits for "Elkesai reincarnation" and my thread was at the top of page 1)

I'm not so sure my threads are completely crappy as some of you like to claim.

And why the heck aren't you interested in the super-early Jewish Christian Elkesaites?

I think they help to explain a heck of a lot

(including 1 Timothy 4:3-7)

(including the obsession of Acts of the Apostles when it comes to the Holy Spirit plus the "power of God called Great" in Acts 8)

(including the LOGOS part of the Gospel of John)

(not to mention what they probably tell us about ALL Jewish Christians including James the Just)

Open your eyes man!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Coyote, posted 11-22-2017 10:02 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 11-23-2017 1:31 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1761
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 23 of 58 (824131)
11-23-2017 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
11-22-2017 2:34 PM


I'm camped out in the ditch watching the traffic go by.

Ah yes, nothing quite like ditch camping to hone one's perspective on the nature of God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 11-22-2017 2:34 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 24 of 58 (824132)
11-23-2017 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 10:24 PM


Re: I found a NoNukes quote on the issue!
Lamark writes:

I am starting to think that many DO READ MY POSTS. (Wasn't so sure before). I put "Manichean reincarnation" into google (55,000 page hits) and my Jesus reincarnation thread was at page 7.

Google's spiders are certainly reading your posts. They read everything and anything on the internet. Whether humans are reading is moot. But I can tell you that very, very few people would get to page 7 of a specific google search like that.

A better measure of whether your posts here are being read would be whether people reply to them. Mostly it seems to me that they don't.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 10:24 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-23-2017 8:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10119
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 25 of 58 (824141)
11-23-2017 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 10:15 PM


Re: NoNukes admits he was brainwashed! (but only old post shows it)
I proved that you never gave it much thought.

You admitted you were brainwashed (but won't admit it now, nor will you admit that I just proved it).

This reasoning is just plain idiotic. I said that I had not thought deeply about Paul's position, not my own position.

You were angry to find out that the Hillary campaign actually was part of a DNC scheme to manipulate the primary schedule (debates, state primary days, etc.)

Your suppositions do not make me angry. They let me know how much of a buffoon you are. I love pointing that stuff out. I also enjoy pointing out where you are lying. I never got around to attacking most of the details of your conspiracy theories. I did attack a couple of the wilder accusations as being without basis. You never responded to my points, you just went off on various tangents.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 10:15 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-23-2017 8:10 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 27 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-23-2017 8:20 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 58 (824167)
11-23-2017 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by NoNukes
11-23-2017 9:35 AM


Re: NoNukes admits he was brainwashed! (but only old post shows it)
quote:

This reasoning is just plain idiotic. I said that I had not thought deeply about Paul's position, not my own position.

The network is running way to slow (took me forever to get this far to respond), but go look at my OP (I will quote the OP later- promise!), and you will see that I was talking about what the Biblical authors (mostly) said.

Nice attempt to split hairs though.

Pretty slick.

(actually it was a transparent, not to mention pathetic lie on your part)

quote:

Your suppositions do not make me angry. They let me know how much of a buffoon you are. I love pointing that stuff out. I also enjoy pointing out where you are lying. I never got around to attacking most of the details of your conspiracy theories. I did attack a couple of the wilder accusations as being without basis. You never responded to my points, you just went off on various tangents.

Nice attempt to lie about what has happened.

It is the defining feature of your character.

Go back and read this thread ( your blanket rewrites of history in your above claim could cover lots of threads - I SUPPOSE -, but you are enough of a obvious liar that I don't much care FOR NOW).

http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=19597

Tell me where I did not respond. (in that thread )

Every lie you told WILL be held to account from now on.

(I didn't accuse you of not responding, in that thread, though I should have as it is pretty clear who is the one who was proven wrong on pretty much every point)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by NoNukes, posted 11-23-2017 9:35 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by AdminPhat, posted 11-23-2017 8:33 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1024
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 58 (824168)
11-23-2017 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by NoNukes
11-23-2017 9:35 AM


In response to the liar NoNukes
Forget my OP, as it is obviously about people being brainwashed

Here is the entire text of my first response to NoNukes

quote:

I will not quote you, but will give a general response.
I was asking WHEN it was that somebody FIRST noticed that they jumped the gun in uncritically believing the entire New Testament spoke of Jesus as "God" when, in fact, the first several Gospels called him the "Son of God".

It wasn't about what exactly was said in every single part of the current New Testament (and how one could read back into, for example, Matthew's Gospel)

It had to do with cultural and societal brainwashing that, by and large, dictates ones reading/understanding of scripture from the very first moment "the Good Book" gets cracked.

You failed to understand my IRREFUTABLE point.


Gee, I really wasn't mainly talking about the Biblical authors views?

After the liar accused me (and told me to search the archives to prove my point), here was what I said after I quoted his past words.

quote:

What does this prove?

NoNukes says he never gave possible un-trinitarian views of Paul much thought.

It backs up my previous point or not?


I really didn't talk about the uncritical assumption on your part about the Biblical author's views?

(Paul, in your case)

Give me a break


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by NoNukes, posted 11-23-2017 9:35 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1829
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 28 of 58 (824169)
11-23-2017 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by LamarkNewAge
11-23-2017 8:10 PM


Stop And Read What You Write
Both of you better knock it off or I will shut this thread and suspend you.

  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
  • Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation.
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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 26 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-23-2017 8:10 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-23-2017 11:55 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded
     Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 11-24-2017 12:19 PM AdminPhat has acknowledged this reply

        
    LamarkNewAge
    Member
    Posts: 1024
    Joined: 12-22-2015
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 29 of 58 (824170)
    11-23-2017 8:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 24 by Tangle
    11-23-2017 1:31 AM


    Re: I found a NoNukes quote on the issue!
    quote:

    Google's spiders are certainly reading your posts. They read everything and anything on the internet. Whether humans are reading is moot. But I can tell you that very, very few people would get to page 7 of a specific google search like that.

    That was Manicheans and reincarnation keywords.

    But.

    Put "Did Jesus teach reincarnation" into google and my thread is at number 28 out of 400,000

    Number 8 of page 3

    quote:

    Page 3 of about 393,000 results (0.32 seconds)


    I'm not so sure your comment applies here too.

    I noticed a good while back that Elkesaites reincarnation or Elkesai reincarnation was on page 1.

    I only put it in to find NoNukes past posts, since he told me to.

    I assumed that it would be way down by now.

    I know that in ten past, keywords like "Jesus teach reincarnation" and "Jesus taught reincarnation Elijah" would have never gotten my thread anywhere visible. I am amazed it is so high.

    quote:

    A better measure of whether your posts here are being read would be whether people reply to them. Mostly it seems to me that they don't.

    I suspect that people interested in Early Christian origins would be more interested than you (and the posters here) in reading my posts (for the book quotes?), but I admit that I am not 100% sure.

    I never post on message boards (except here), but I sure read a lot of discussions.

    Most people read but don't type.

    (I imagine they don't see me as an expert, so don't post to ask me questions, as they don't think my answer is going to be anything worth registering on EVC for.)

    I don't know.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by Tangle, posted 11-23-2017 1:31 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 32 by Tangle, posted 11-24-2017 3:32 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

        
    LamarkNewAge
    Member
    Posts: 1024
    Joined: 12-22-2015
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 30 of 58 (824172)
    11-23-2017 11:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 28 by AdminPhat
    11-23-2017 8:33 PM


    TOPIC IS THIS. (roughly anyway)
    When did you start to question the idea that all (or most) of the Biblical author's had views which were inline with "Trinitarian" type Christology.

    Really, when did it un-Trinitarian interpretations even dawn on you as a possible interpretation.

    The main issue I was thinking of was assuming as fact the idea that Jesus was God, instead of simply the "Son of God". (There is also the issue of what exactly the author's thought of whenever they mentioned the Holy Spirit)

    The topic isn't exactly a debate about the views of Paul or any other author, the debate is about when you found it to even be an issue that Biblical authors might not have all had views that fell in line with what the various churches teach today.

    The main reason I ask is because I really have talked to (or overheard) a lot of people (they are typically ethnic Christians who don't attend church) who seem shocked that Jesus is described in The Bible as God (it seems to be a modern thing to think that the endless evangelical chant "Son of God" means just that - son!).

    Non Christians usually are aware that Jesus is thought to be God.

    I noticed this long ago.

    But this is a modern thing and mostly a view among the younger generations. (say those born after 1975?) and it is far from widespread.

    Those who come from religious Christian families will typically always interpret the "Son of God" to mean God (I don't think it meant that originally, but I honestly don't know, and the possibility is REAL that Avatar-like claims might have been spoken by Jesus during his lifetime THOUGH I, AGAIN, DOUBT IT)

    Popular culture always beamed the "Jesus is God" idea into peoples heads so strongly, that it wasn't even considered that he was possibly described as anything but God.

    Things are changing, for sure, and what was once fully ingrained into every single head (in past generations), is becoming a thing of the past.

    Whether this means people are returning to 1st century Christian views or not isn't really my concern (in this thread). (A case can be made that these un-Trinitarian views are giving an opportunity to put the Christ back into Christianity, since that was probably where the founders of the religion were BUT THAT IT NOT THE TOPIC EITHER)

    There is a transition happening, but most older folk would have been brainwashed into reading "Jesus is God" into every Biblical author (especially the New Testament, but it is amazing how many are brainwashed enough to think that the Old Testament talks about Jesus too - and as God to boot!).

    Anyway.

    When did you first become aware of the possibility that every Biblical author did not think of Jesus to be God?

    And how?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by AdminPhat, posted 11-23-2017 8:33 PM AdminPhat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 31 by Phat, posted 11-24-2017 1:49 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

        
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