Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 107 (8805 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-13-2017 7:17 PM
325 online now:
Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), Percy (Admin) (2 members, 323 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 824,103 Year: 28,709/21,208 Month: 775/1,847 Week: 150/475 Day: 43/17 Hour: 1/2

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
4567Next
Author Topic:   R.C.Sprouls Teaching On Reformed Theology
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11841
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 31 of 99 (824630)
12-01-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
11-30-2017 5:48 PM


Re: God Character On Trial
Tradition asserts that the grounds are Scripture alone and Faith alone.

That is such a terrible theology - you have to include reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 11-30-2017 5:48 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 12-01-2017 1:42 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 32 of 99 (824633)
12-01-2017 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by New Cat's Eye
12-01-2017 12:52 PM


Reformed Theology is Calvinism
Sproul essentially says as much during this brief video.

4 point Calvinists
and McArthur seems to agree.

Sproul elaborates that Reformed Theology is more than simply TULIP, but defends the 5 points.

Norm Geisler, on the other hand, apparently rejects much of Calvinism.

Why I am not a 5 point Calvinist Perhaps that is why the concept was not brought up in Chicago.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-01-2017 12:52 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 12-01-2017 1:48 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 33 of 99 (824635)
12-01-2017 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
12-01-2017 1:42 PM


Re: Reformed Theology is Calvinism
And again, that is simply an example of either Sproul's willful ignorance or his dishonesty.

Calvinism is one of the Chapters in the Reformed Theology section of Club Christian but there is not even some "Calvinism™" but rather many flavors of Calvinism.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 12-01-2017 1:42 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 12-01-2017 3:45 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 12-01-2017 4:05 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 34 of 99 (824649)
12-01-2017 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
12-01-2017 1:48 PM


Re: Reformed Theology is Calvinism
Calvinism is one of the Chapters in the Reformed Theology section of Club Christian but there is not even some "Calvinism™" but rather many flavors of Calvinism.
Can you elaborate? What did Sproul fail to address?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 12-01-2017 1:48 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 35 of 99 (824651)
12-01-2017 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
12-01-2017 1:48 PM


Biblical Christianity and J.Vernon McGee
Another noted preacher was radio pastor j.Vernon McGee.
He produced a five year series called Through The Bible.
quote:
John Vernon McGee, Th.D., LL.D, was an ordained Presbyterian minister and later became the pastor of a non-denominational church, a Bible teacher, theologian, and was also a radio minister.
,Apparantly, McGee denounces Calvinism.
quote:
Dr. McGee calls Calvinism's Doctrine of Election a dangerous and frightful view of God. He also said, if he believed in this doctrine, he'd never attempted to preach the word of God and never try to lead anyone to Christ because there'd be no need of it.

With his folksy charm, he explains his position rather well in this video.
Dr. J. Vernon McGee Refutes Calvinism - Doctrine of Election and Free Will

Thus there are many flavors of Christianity, and I also reread that Episcopal Bishops statement. One question for you: Is Biblical Christianity, as defined by you, all about Calvinism and if not, what are the beliefs of Biblical Christianity that are in your opinion dishonest and/or worthless?

I always listened to McGee and found his explanations rather sound. His entire 5-year teaching series is also offered for free, which chalks up points that his organization was not simply selling something.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 12-01-2017 1:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 12-01-2017 5:19 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 36 of 99 (824658)
12-01-2017 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
12-01-2017 4:05 PM


Re: Biblical Christianity and J.Vernon McGee
Phat writes:

jar writes:

Calvinism is one of the Chapters in the Reformed Theology section of Club Christian but there is not even some "Calvinism™" but rather many flavors of Calvinism.

Can you elaborate? What did Sproul fail to address?

You are doing a pretty fair job yourself. You are finding examples of people that market Reformed Theology based products yet denounce Calvinism. In addition there is not just one Calvinistic denomination but rather many. Note SOME Presbyterian or Methodist or Baptist or Lutheran churches identify as Calvinist yet others do not.

When Sproul makes a statement claiming that his interpretations represent Christianity or Reformed Theology or Calvinism he is simply letting his mouth write a check his ass can't cash. Talk about arrogance and you are pointing at folk like Sproul.

Phat writes:

Is Biblical Christianity, as defined by you, all about Calvinism and if not, what are the beliefs of Biblical Christianity that are in your opinion dishonest and/or worthless?

I tend to consider people who claim to be "Biblical Christians" as Biblical Christians. I believe them. And then I take their statements and examine them in relation to what the Bible actually says rather than what they claim the Bible says.

What soon becomes apparent is that "Biblical Christians", most of those who self identify as "Biblical Christians", says things that show they do not actually believe what the Bible says. In fact, they work very hard and even created a whole profession of folk called apologists whose sole job is to try to make up ways to get around and avoid admitting what the the Bible actually does say and the fact that the Bible is filled with factual errors, contradictions, evolving folk tales and just plain silly stuff.

I find Calvinism evil.

I find most of "Biblical Christianity" simply pathetic, pretty harmless and so more a matter of willful ignorance than anything evil. It's sad and stupid but if it helps folk then fine.

Calvinism IMHO is a cancer that should be rooted out.

"Biblical Christianity" on the other hand is simply kids and children and there is always hope and lots of evidence that at least some of them will grow up.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 12-01-2017 4:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 12-02-2017 11:15 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 12-02-2017 2:14 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 37 of 99 (824688)
12-02-2017 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
12-01-2017 5:19 PM


McGee on Free Will and the Doctrine of Election
In Part 2, McGee explains his viewpoint much more humbly than RC Sproul does. And its interesting that you pointed out Sprouls arrogance...I would have never guessed that you would spot it before I would.

At the end of the day, this whole argument does come down to faith and not evidence. Faith, I want you to listen to McGee...he is a better example of someone worth listening to than either McArthur or RC Sproul.
When I say someone worth listening to, I am not saying that they have uncovered any more truth than any one of us. I am saying that they are more honest.(and humble)

Edited by Phat, : spelling


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 12-01-2017 5:19 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 12-02-2017 11:32 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 38 of 99 (824690)
12-02-2017 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
12-02-2017 11:15 AM


Re: McGee on Free Will and the Doctrine of Election
Phat writes:

I am saying that they are more honest.(and humble)


Ever hear somebody say that such-and-such-an-actor is a really nice guy in person? Is he really a nice guy or is he just a good actor?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 12-02-2017 11:15 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 12-02-2017 11:40 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 39 of 99 (824691)
12-02-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
12-02-2017 11:32 AM


Phil Johnson
True. It all boils down to an individual character judgment. Even bad actors occasionally have good performances. Take Phil Johnson. Phil is John MacArthurs right-hand elder...and he often shows up at various debates/discussions with MacArthur. I disagree with what he says here:Why I Am a Calvinist, Part 1 but one little kernel of common sense caught my attention:

Phil Johnson writes:

With the rise of the Internet it’s easier than ever for self-taught lay people to engage in theological dialogue and debate through internet forums. I think that’s mostly good, and I encourage it. But the Internet makes it easy for like-minded but ignorant people to clump together and endlessly reinforce one another’s ignorance. And I fear that happens a lot.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 12-02-2017 11:32 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 12-02-2017 11:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 40 of 99 (824692)
12-02-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Phat
12-02-2017 11:40 AM


Re: Phil Johnson
Phil Johnson writes:

But the Internet makes it easy for like-minded but ignorant people to clump together and endlessly reinforce one another’s ignorance.


Sounds like creationism.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. They correct me when I'm close-but-not-quite.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 12-02-2017 11:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 41 of 99 (824697)
12-02-2017 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
12-01-2017 5:19 PM


Its All Unexplained
I can agree with you regarding sorting information into an unexplained pile versus a miraculous confirming pile.

Faith, by its very nature, is unexplained in a scientific sense. It often is illogical and makes no sense. It can be accused of being willful ignorance or at best a fictional story. One of the reasons that I embrace McGee as a teacher is because he has read the bible and also because he refers to God as a living entity and a personal one...not a mere character in a book.

Now...concerning you, I have also studied your beliefs endlessly, and have embraced only a few of them as my own. The primary reason is that you throw away that which I hold necessary and sacred...namely a relational GOD. Granted you have a valid argument for why you believe as you do, and I realize that yours is a mature grown-up view...one which is honest.
Apart from your occasional arrogance, you seem to be a person whom I would feel comfortable knowing. McGee, in contrast, tells me what I want to hear...but he honestly seems only to be representing his position rather than attempting to gain converts. Granted he believes in the most modern idea of a Great Commission, but he has never thrown any of his personal beliefs away to discuss earlier Commissions in context.
The primary difference between you and McGee seems to center on the need to have a relational God. He, like I, seems to need it. He is quite a folksy charming guy, however. My beliefs are my responsibility, in the final analysis. No amount of finding a teacher who confirms what my itching ears want to hear will ever broaden my perspective, and you and Ringo always seem to push that certain button that makes me cringe.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 12-01-2017 5:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 12-02-2017 3:16 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 42 of 99 (824707)
12-02-2017 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
12-02-2017 2:14 PM


Re: Its All Unexplained
If there is evidence then Faith is not required.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 12-02-2017 2:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Percy, posted 12-02-2017 8:44 PM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 12-05-2017 5:22 PM jar has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16305
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 43 of 99 (824736)
12-02-2017 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
12-02-2017 3:16 PM


Re: Its All Unexplained
jar writes:

If there is evidence then Faith is not required.

I think you meant that if there is evidence then Faith won't care. Or did you mean lower case faith.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 12-02-2017 3:16 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 44 of 99 (824758)
12-03-2017 11:58 AM


Sproulagisms
RC Sproul has several teaching series which always get me to think.

One I am listening to now is called The Psychology of Atheism

Creating God In Mans Image
Suppressing The Truth


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 45 of 99 (824964)
12-05-2017 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
12-02-2017 3:16 PM


Questions & Answers From RC Sproul
I read some of RC Sprouls answers to basic questions asked by laymen and although they spurred me to think about the questions, none of the answers satisfied my current search for truth and reality. Critics claim that apologists make a lot of stuff up and twist scripture in order to satisfy answers, and i am afraid that these critics have a point. I will say that RC Sproul is thorough and methodical in his reasoning, apart from the fact that his answers assume things that I have not yet allowed myself to assume. Here are a few examples:

What are the characteristics of the Christian God that differentiate him from other gods?
There are so many different interpretations of what the Bible is saying. How do I know which one is right?
How does today's postmodernism affect the popular understanding of the atonement?
What do our good deeds have to do with our salvation?

As an example, look at the last question. Classical Apologetics, Sproul included, assume that God requires perfect obedience from us. Hence the need for Jesus Insurance. But I question whether God actually would require that. Even jar says that we will be judged based on what we do versus what we could have done, but perfection is never mentioned.

Sproul also portrays God as Holy. To me, this is, of course, a given assumption...but arguably not anything more than my belief. I mean...what if GOD was not entirely holy? What if He were "complete"? (Though I usually disagree with that assessment.)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 12-02-2017 3:16 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 12-05-2017 5:26 PM Phat has responded

  
Prev12
3
4567Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017