Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 80 (8871 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 10-21-2018 6:42 PM
184 online now:
Aussie, Coragyps, dwise1, GDR, ringo (5 members, 179 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: paradigm of types
Post Volume:
Total: 840,517 Year: 15,340/29,783 Month: 1,284/1,502 Week: 41/241 Day: 41/36 Hour: 2/9


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
56
7
8910Next
Author Topic:   R.C.Sprouls Teaching On Reformed Theology
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 91 of 137 (825303)
12-11-2017 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
12-10-2017 12:56 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
Phat writes:

TULIP hardly seems like sizzle to me.

It is sizzle when you are told (as you were told) that you are the Elect and Saved and Once Elected you can Never Lose That Election.

Phat writes:

If anything, it describes a God who is uncaring. So what if He has the power to do whatever He deems right?

But that only becomes an issue if you actually examine the teachings. How many of the Elect actually look at and examine the teachings from outside the paradigm?

Phat writes:

As believers, cant we at least start with the belief that GOD is?

As believers that is a good place to start; but then it seems folk want to paint that in a way that fits their desires. Then we get Gods and gods.

Phat writes:

So we can agree that we are working out our ideas of a God we can agree on?

Why. Why not let each person imagine and worship the God they create?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 12-10-2017 12:56 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-11-2017 10:24 PM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-12-2017 8:38 AM jar has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 137 (825304)
12-11-2017 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by jar
12-11-2017 7:26 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
It is sizzle when you are told (as you were told) that you are the Elect and Saved and Once Elected you can Never Lose That Election.

It gets worse when an Elect screws up in a way that an Elected wouldn't, and so then the conclusion becomes that, actually, you weren't really truly Elected in the first place. That's an obvious scam.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 12-11-2017 7:26 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by PaulK, posted 12-12-2017 3:33 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 93 of 137 (825305)
12-12-2017 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by New Cat's Eye
12-11-2017 10:24 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
The real problem is in allowing people to think that they ARE Elect.

Even if they were right about the concept of Election that would still be wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-11-2017 10:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 12-12-2017 8:20 AM PaulK has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 137 (825306)
12-12-2017 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by PaulK
12-12-2017 3:33 AM


John MacArthur on Election
Another well known Bible teacher is John MacArthur. This is what he says regarding this issue of election:
quote:
Among the most hotly contested and persistent debates in the history of the confessing church, the doctrine of election is perhaps the greatest of all. The question goes like this: Does God choose sinners to be saved and then provide for their salvation? Or, Does God provide the way of salvation that sinners must choose for themselves?

Where's the evidence?

This question of choice is called "election" because of the Greek word for those who are chosen—the Bible calls them eklektos. There are many such uses in the Bible (cf. Colossians 3:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; Titus 1:1; 2 John 1), but one of my favorites is in Romans 8:33: "Who will bring a charge against God's elect?" The answer is, "no one," but why? Is it because I chose God, or is it because God chose me?

One passage that is critical to the discussion is in the opening chapter of Paul's letter to the Ephesians. Immediately after his customary greeting, Paul launches in Ephesians 1:3-14 with a great song of praise. It's only one sentence—but, with 200 words in the Greek, it may be the longest single sentence in religious literature.

Paul touches on all the great biblical themes in that hyper-complex sentence—sanctification, adoption, redemption, and glorification—and all of them rest on one foundational doctrine, the doctrine of election. The most superlative spiritual blessings stand on Ephesians 1:4—"He chose us [elected us] in Him before the foundation of the world."

So the doctrine of election is biblical, but what does that passage really teach? I want to help you get a better grasp of that by pointing out what Paul teaches about election. If you are a believer, you can equip yourself for your next conversation on this topic. But more important, as one of His elect you can rejoice in the astonishing kindness God showed you before the world began.

What does it mean?

Paul's song is essentially his reflection on the amazing truth that God "blessed us with every spiritual blessing . . . in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3). And how did He bless us? "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4).

God didn't draw straws; He didn't look down the corridor of time to see who would choose Him before He decided. Rather, by His sovereign will He chose who would be in the Body of Christ. The construction of the Greek verb for "chose" indicates God chose us for Himself. That means God acted totally independent of any outside influence. He made His choice totally apart from human will and purely on the basis of His sovereignty.

Jesus said to His disciples, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). And in the same Gospel, John wrote, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13, italics mine). And Paul said, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Those statements defining God's sovereign choice of believers are not in the Bible to cause controversy as if God's election means sinners don't make decisions. Election does not exclude human responsibility or the necessity of each person to respond to the gospel by faith. Jesus said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37).

Admittedly the two concepts don't seem to go together. However, both are true separately, and we must accept them both by faith. You may not understand it, but rest assured—it's fully reconciled in the mind of God.

You must understand that your faith and salvation rest entirely on God's election (cf. Acts 13:48). And yet the day you came to Jesus Christ, you did so because of an internal desire—you did nothing against your will. But even that desire is God-given—He supplies the necessary faith so we can believe (Eph. 2:8).

Think about it—if your salvation depends on you, then praise to God is ridiculous. But, in truth, your praise to God is completely appropriate, because in forming the Body before the world began, He chose you by His sovereign decree apart from any of your works.


Just as with RC Sproul, John MacArthur is the heart and soul of Biblical Christianity. His integrity has so far remained unscathed....but the question again is this: In jars words, are these men taking pieces parts out of context? What mistake did Calvin...and much later RC Sproul and John MacArthur...make regarding the use of scripture to defend their beliefs?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by PaulK, posted 12-12-2017 3:33 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by PaulK, posted 12-12-2017 12:08 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 137 (825307)
12-12-2017 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by jar
12-11-2017 7:26 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
jar writes:

Why not let each person imagine and worship the God they create?

Does this include you?

Not that I know the inner workings of your mind and soul, but in my mind, the God you have created is beyond your capacity to fully understand.

  • He is almost certainly unlike anything any humans have defined so far.
  • He does not favor any one group of people.
  • He can be described as a She or an It because He is not simply anthropomorphically human...thus beyond gender.
  • In addition, your position on Jesus is still unclear. While Jesus is not God (The Father) is He a human like all of us that was resurrected by GOD? If so,
    did Jesus exist pre-incarnation or was he just like the rest of us humans?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 91 by jar, posted 12-11-2017 7:26 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 96 by jar, posted 12-12-2017 9:37 AM Phat has responded

      
  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 30920
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 96 of 137 (825309)
    12-12-2017 9:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
    12-12-2017 8:38 AM


    personal journey
    Phat writes:

    jar writes:

    Why not let each person imagine and worship the God they create?

    Does this include you?

    Sure. Of course it includes me.

    Phat writes:

    Not that I know the inner workings of your mind and soul, but in my mind, the God you have created is beyond your capacity to fully understand.

  • He is almost certainly unlike anything any humans have defined so far.
  • He does not favor any one group of people.
  • He can be described as a She or an It because He is not simply anthropomorphically human...thus beyond gender.
  • In addition, your position on Jesus is still unclear. While Jesus is not God (The Father) is He a human like all of us that was resurrected by GOD? If so,
    did Jesus exist pre-incarnation or was he just like the rest of us humans?
  • Close. Yes, GOD if GOD exists is almost certainly none of the Gods or Gods we acknowledge. And yes, a GOD that is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen is far beyond my capacity to even begin saying I understand.

    It's possible that GOD might look on some creation like a father of a precocious child. But a Good Parent does not exhibit favoritism even while recognizing innate exceptional potential but instead provides greater challenges for the precocious child.

    Yes. Several reasons. All the evidence shows that there are far more than two sexes, that many critters change sex, that some are both male and female and either alternating the sex or both male and female at the same time and that even the terms we use to discuss sex are amorphous.

    My position on Jesus is really pretty simple.

    While Jesus was living here among humans (if Jesus actually existed) he was simply a human. Not God, not part God, but just plain human; born as a human, raised as a Jew. I can't speculate of whether or not Jesus existed before his birth or after his ascension. Both of those instances face the same hurdle as all the Gods we create.

    The term incarnation means to fully take on the form of; to become.

    Go back to the Nicene Creed.

    quote:
    Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man;

    Even the format used by the Christian Reformed Church is similar.

    quote:
    For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven;
    he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
    and was made human.

    Both say that Jesus, regardless of any prior or later nature, was made a man, a human, just like all of us.

    (aside: The Nicene Creed is still under dispute between the Western and Eastern traditions over the inclusion of the term "and the Son" in the lines in the last stanza dealing with the concept of The Holy Spirit)

    quote:
    He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
    and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.

    And that is an important point. Even within Christianity there is not unanimous acceptance of even something a basic to the faith as the Nicene Creed; differences that have not been resolved in over 1600 years.

    Based on the available evidence the idea of coming up with some consensus God seems futile.

    But what we can do is examine the God different peoples market.

    I can look at the God Calvinists market and say "If that is God then I reject all that God stands for". I can look at Ganesha and say "Yes, an enabler, remover of obstacles God is one I could support." I can look at the the God Young Earth supporters market or Flood supporters market and say "Nope, can't worship or honor a God that is just a dishonest trickster."

    Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-12-2017 8:38 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 97 by Phat, posted 12-12-2017 11:22 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11322
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 97 of 137 (825310)
    12-12-2017 11:22 AM
    Reply to: Message 96 by jar
    12-12-2017 9:37 AM


    Re: personal journey
    jar writes:

    Even within Christianity there is not unanimous acceptance of even something a basic to the faith as the Nicene Creed; differences that have not been resolved in over 1600 years.

    Based on the available evidence the idea of coming up with some consensus God seems futile.

    But what we can do is examine the God different peoples market.

    So again I ask: Just as with RC Sproul, John MacArthur is the heart and soul of Biblical Christianity. His integrity has so far remained unscathed....but the question again is this: In jars words, are these men taking pieces parts out of context? What mistake did Calvin...and much later RC Sproul and John MacArthur...make regarding the use of scripture to defend their beliefs? Also...concerning the "God" of Calvinism...

    jar writes:

    I can look at the God Calvinists market and say "If that is God then I reject all that God stands for".

    Whereas I can accept some of what they teach and/or market while rejecting other points or beliefs. In my mind, the Calvinists have used scripture extensively to support their idea. To reject the God wholesale means basically having to imagine a totally different God than what scripture talks about.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 96 by jar, posted 12-12-2017 9:37 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 99 by jar, posted 12-12-2017 12:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 14419
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    (1)
    Message 98 of 137 (825312)
    12-12-2017 12:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
    12-12-2017 8:20 AM


    Re: John MacArthur on Election
    Ah, covering up the contradiction by calling it a mystery.

    First, he says that God’s choice is independent of our decisions.


    God didn't draw straws; He didn't look down the corridor of time to see who would choose Him before He decided. Rather, by His sovereign will He chose who would be in the Body of Christ. The construction of the Greek verb for "chose" indicates God chose us for Himself. That means God acted totally independent of any outside influence. He made His choice totally apart from human will and purely on the basis of His sovereignty.

    And


    You must understand that your faith and salvation rest entirely on God's election (cf. Acts 13:48). And yet the day you came to Jesus Christ, you did so because of an internal desire—you did nothing against your will. But even that desire is God-given—He supplies the necessary faith so we can believe (Eph. 2:8).

    But he also says


    Those statements defining God's sovereign choice of believers are not in the Bible to cause controversy as if God's election means sinners don't make decisions. Election does not exclude human responsibility or the necessity of each person to respond to the gospel by faith

    If that faith has to be God-given it is not our fault if we lack it. If God chooses to withhold it, that is his responsibility, not ours. And if the response came from us apart from God’s gift it would get us nothing, which makes the talk of responsibility a red herring.

    It’s the usual story. Give God all the credit for the good things, blame humans for the bad things. But it can’t work taken to the absolute of Calvinism - either we have a real choice independent of God’s will (even if it’s only meeting a condition God chose to set up) or we’re just puppets being blamed for the puppeteer’s decisions.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 94 by Phat, posted 12-12-2017 8:20 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30920
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 99 of 137 (825314)
    12-12-2017 12:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 97 by Phat
    12-12-2017 11:22 AM


    Re: personal journey
    Phat writes:

    In jars words, are these men taking pieces parts out of context? What mistake did Calvin...and much later RC Sproul and John MacArthur...make regarding the use of scripture to defend their beliefs? Also...concerning the "God" of Calvinism...

    Yes, they most certainly are taking pieces parts out of context. It's not a mistake but rather an intentional tactic to market the God they created.

    Any religion that markets using proof texts or short pieces taken out of context is creating the God they want.

    Phat writes:

    Whereas I can accept some of what they teach and/or market while rejecting other points or beliefs. In my mind, the Calvinists have used scripture extensively to support their idea. To reject the God wholesale means basically having to imagine a totally different God than what scripture talks about.

    But the reality is that there is no such thing as "the God that scripture talks about". What they are marketing is the God that fits their sales plan.

    The truth is that the Bible stories are filled with a vast collection of descriptions and characterizations of God and many if not most are contradictory.

    There is no universal God to be found in the Bible.

    What gets marketed is some extra Biblical God where each salesman picks the pieces parts out that fit his marketing plan.

    It works.

    And it also explains why there are so many Christian Denominations and many times more Non-Denominational Churches.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 97 by Phat, posted 12-12-2017 11:22 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 100 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:07 PM jar has responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 29844
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 100 of 137 (825607)
    12-16-2017 1:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 99 by jar
    12-12-2017 12:24 PM


    Re: personal journey
    Any religion that markets using proof texts or short pieces taken out of context is creating the God they want.

    If you're talking about the pieces that are TULIP, that was in fact the work of Calvin's Arminian opponents, and Calvinists object to reducing Calvin to a few tenets like that.

    Your idea that anyone has some desire to "market" a religion, let alone the upstanding leaders of Christianity, is perniciously ridiculous. All the Reformers base their doctrines on the Bible and with small exceptions they agree with each other.

    And of course the Bible is all about one universal God, who inspired it.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 99 by jar, posted 12-12-2017 12:24 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 101 by jar, posted 12-16-2017 1:30 PM Faith has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30920
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 101 of 137 (825613)
    12-16-2017 1:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
    12-16-2017 1:07 PM


    Re: personal journey
    Faith writes:

    And of course the Bible is all about one universal God, who inspired it.

    So you claim but of course that is simply not true or factual.

    The God character in the Bible is yet another example of contradictions and evolution found throughout the Bible.

    The newer God found in Genesis 1 is characterized entirely differently than the much older God found in Genesis 2&3.

    In the older stories the Hebrew God is but one of many Gods and in fact tied to a particular piece of real estate. That is why Namaan asked for two donkey loads of dirt from Israel.

    In the New Testament God becomes an off stage voice, a classic Greek Chorus or Mira.

    Each Bible story writer created the God that was appropriate to the story being told and the era and milieu they lived within.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 100 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:07 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 102 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:37 PM jar has responded
     Message 105 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 10:01 AM jar has responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 29844
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 102 of 137 (825616)
    12-16-2017 1:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 101 by jar
    12-16-2017 1:30 PM


    Re: personal journey
    I guess we can endlessly trade perspectives, your recently invented attempt to kill the Bible and my traditional knowledge that the Bible is God's word. Kind of a waste of space though.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 101 by jar, posted 12-16-2017 1:30 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 103 by jar, posted 12-16-2017 1:45 PM Faith has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30920
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 103 of 137 (825620)
    12-16-2017 1:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
    12-16-2017 1:37 PM


    Re: personal journey
    Faith writes:

    I guess we can endlessly trade perspectives, your recently invented attempt to kill the Bible and my traditional knowledge that the Bible is God's word.

    Again with the misrepresentation Faith. You need to try to learn to not constant misrepresent stuff.

    I do not attempt to kill the Bible and in fact try very hard to actually report what is honestly written in the Bible and to highlight when people misuse and pervert the Bible.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 102 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:37 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 104 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:49 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 29844
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 104 of 137 (825622)
    12-16-2017 1:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 103 by jar
    12-16-2017 1:45 PM


    Re: personal journey
    Yes, I understand that you actually believe such craziness while you slash and burn the entire history of traditional Christianity and call its true followers by the names you deserve.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 103 by jar, posted 12-16-2017 1:45 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11322
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 105 of 137 (825682)
    12-17-2017 10:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 101 by jar
    12-16-2017 1:30 PM


    Is God Always Created By Humans? Implications....
    jar writes:

    The God character in the Bible is yet another example of contradictions and evolution found throughout the Bible.

    The newer God found in Genesis 1 is characterized entirely differently than the much older God found in Genesis 2&3.

    In the older stories the Hebrew God is but one of many Gods and in fact tied to a particular piece of real estate. That is why Namaan asked for two donkey loads of dirt from Israel.

    In the New Testament God becomes an off stage voice, a classic Greek Chorus or Mira.

    Each Bible story writer created the God that was appropriate to the story being told and the era and milieu they lived within.

    So are you basically saying that in all instances, humans created God? I simply cant accept this. And if we were to honestly confront the storytellers of each era (through our magic time machine) and ask them to honestly admit that they were creating God, they would likely deny such an assertion...much as Faith denies that she does it. I can admit that humans likely make god out to be what they want Him to be and see Him as....but what bothers me about what you say is the total lack of belief that God actually exists and interacts with us. You may claim...honestly...that you have no idea...but to project this belief onto the rest of us is a bit of a stretch.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 101 by jar, posted 12-16-2017 1:30 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 106 by jar, posted 12-17-2017 10:33 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 107 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:01 PM Phat has responded

      
    Prev1
    ...
    56
    7
    8910Next
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018