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Author Topic:   R.C.Sprouls Teaching On Reformed Theology
Phat
Member
Posts: 11439
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 121 of 137 (838836)
08-29-2018 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
08-29-2018 9:42 AM


Re: Who Do You Say That I am?
so who do you say that the Jesus character was? And how does your answer compliment your understanding and belief in the Nicene Creed?

Will you conclude that Jesus was a fallible human and nothing more? Does the Creed conclude the same?

As you teach this as your informed opinion on the matter, do you feel good about what you are in fact teaching about Jesus?

Aside from the statement that Jesus was made man, does the Creed emphasize His failures and human characteristics?

Is there any particular reason that you have brought this up more than once?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 08-29-2018 9:42 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 08-29-2018 10:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 122 of 137 (838837)
08-29-2018 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
08-29-2018 9:58 AM


Re: Who Do You Say That I am?
Phat writes:

so who do you say that the Jesus character was? And how does your answer compliment your understanding and belief in the Nicene Creed?

I don't Phat. We've been over that many times before. I do report what the Bible tales say.

Phat writes:

Will you conclude that Jesus was a fallible human and nothing more? Does the Creed conclude the same?

Yes. While Jesus was alive and and teaching he was a fallible human being and nothing more. Yes, the Creed says the same thing.

Phat writes:

As you teach this as your informed opinion on the matter, do you feel good about what you are in fact teaching about Jesus?

Yes, I feel very good about what I report since I am reporting what is actually written about Jesus in the Bible.

Phat writes:

Aside from the statement that Jesus was made man, does the Creed emphasize His failures and human characteristics?

Creeds are short summaries and not detailed reports Phat. Nor did I mention failures.

Phat writes:

Is there any particular reason that you have brought this up more than once?

Yes, I bring it up because most popular caricatures of Jesus make Jesus the individual pretty much trivial, worthless, pointless, useless, insignificant and picayune.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-29-2018 9:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15599
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 123 of 137 (838871)
08-29-2018 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
08-29-2018 9:08 AM


Re: Who Do You Say That I am?
Phat writes:

So ringo, who was Jesus? Is he more than another in a long line of teachers? Why or why not?


In the story, some men would have said that Jesus was a preacher. Some men might have said that Jesus was the Messiah - and they would have been disappointed when He died without accomplishing anything that the Messiah was supposed to accomplish. Maybe a few men would have said that Jesus was the Son of God; no doubt many of them would have been disappointed too when He died.

Is there any reason to think He was was something other than another preacher? Is there any reason to think He existed at all?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 08-29-2018 9:08 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 1:55 PM ringo has responded
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 08-29-2018 2:18 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30062
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 124 of 137 (838884)
08-29-2018 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ringo
08-29-2018 12:49 PM


Re: Who Do You Say That I am?
Jesus praised Peter for saying He was the Messiah, that he could only have known that by the Holy Spirit.

They were all disappointment when He died because they were still laboring under the false idea that He was to liberate them politically, and that hope was dashed completely by His death. It wasn't until the Holy Spirit came upon them at Pentecost that they understood that it had nothing to do with earthly liberation, but liberation from sin, a spiritual kingdom that is "not of this world."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 12:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 2:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11439
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 125 of 137 (838885)
08-29-2018 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ringo
08-29-2018 12:49 PM


Re: Who Do You Say That I am?
It's things that you say like this that cause me to dismiss your so-called plain reading of the text while having no concept of belief in the character described in the book except when it furthers your arguments.

As Faith says, the story plainly centered on Jesus asking Pilate what truth was and of Jesus asking Peter who Peter thought that He was. The story did not end with a failed Messiah...I don't even want to speculate on what demons inspire you to question the existence of Jesus, but hopefully, you inadvertently give Him spare change without knowing who you gave it to....you will pull out of this faux pax.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 12:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 2:33 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15599
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 126 of 137 (838886)
08-29-2018 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
08-29-2018 1:55 PM


Re: Who Do You Say That I am?
Faith writes:

It wasn't until the Holy Spirit came upon them at Pentecost that they understood that it had nothing to do with earthly liberation, but liberation from sin, a spiritual kingdom that is "not of this world."


That's a handy copout. When something isn't fulfilled you claim that the scriptures mean something completely different from what they say. "Ask and ye shall receive" might as well mean that you'll receive spiritual benefis after you die of starvation.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 08-29-2018 1:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15599
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 127 of 137 (838887)
08-29-2018 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Phat
08-29-2018 2:18 PM


Re: Who Do You Say That I am?
Phat writes:

The story did not end with a failed Messiah...


Yes it did. The story does quite literally end with Jesus as a failed Messiah (if He was ever even supposed to be one). There is nothing in the plain text to suggest that Jesus succeeded as a Messiah. Even the part that is added on by your fundie commentators leaves the success to some mythical "Second Coming".

Phat writes:

It's things that you say like this that cause me to dismiss your so-called plain reading of the text while having no concept of belief in the character described in the book except when it furthers your arguments.


I don't need any belief to be able to read. You, on the other hand, have to park your reading ability at the door in order to swallow the rubbish that your commentators are feeding you.

Feel free to dismiss the text if you must - but remember that without the text there would be no Jesus for you to believe in.

Edited by ringo, : Format
ing.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 08-29-2018 2:18 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 08-30-2018 2:41 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11439
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 128 of 137 (838918)
08-30-2018 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by ringo
08-29-2018 2:33 PM


Re: Who Do You Say That I am?
ringo writes:

... remember that without the text there would be no Jesus for you to believe in.

Some believe that Jesus was in the beginning with God...long before any books even existed. You are portraying Him simply as a character within a book. Lacking evidence, neither of us know for sure.

I maintain, however, that I can very much believe in Jesus without the book...I just would have had to find out about Him some other way.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 2:33 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by ringo, posted 08-30-2018 3:02 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15599
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 129 of 137 (838922)
08-30-2018 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
08-30-2018 2:41 PM


Re: Who Do You Say That I am?
Phat writes:

Some believe that Jesus was in the beginning with God...long before any books even existed. You are portraying Him simply as a character within a book.


Without the book, how would you ever have heard of him? What "other way" do you suggest?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 08-30-2018 2:41 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 08-30-2018 3:12 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11439
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 130 of 137 (838924)
08-30-2018 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by ringo
08-30-2018 3:02 PM


thRe: Who Do You Say That I am?
the same way the authors of the stories heard of Him.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ringo, posted 08-30-2018 3:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 08-30-2018 3:39 PM Phat has responded
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 08-30-2018 5:08 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 131 of 137 (838925)
08-30-2018 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
08-30-2018 3:12 PM


Re: thRe: Who Do You Say That I am?
Phat writes:

the same way the authors of the stories heard of Him.

Sorry Phat but that is just silly. How could you hear about Jesus if it were not for the existence of the written stories AND the adoption and forced marketing of Christianity?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 08-30-2018 3:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 09-22-2018 7:58 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15599
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 132 of 137 (838938)
08-30-2018 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
08-30-2018 3:12 PM


Re: thRe: Who Do You Say That I am?
Phat writes:

the same way the authors of the stories heard of Him.


In the streets of Jerusalem 2000 years ago? How are you going to pull that off?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 08-30-2018 3:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 08-30-2018 8:08 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11439
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 133 of 137 (838948)
08-30-2018 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by ringo
08-30-2018 5:08 PM


Re: Who Do You Say That I am?
See? This is the whole reason that you never became a believer. Your entire mental thought process requires hard evidence before you even entertain the idea of belief. Since you have yet to find satisfactory evidence for a God or for Jesus being a living Spirit today, you resort to the only evidence you have...the book which describes it all (except for later added dogma) and you limit any possibility of belief by the common error of "putting God in a box" or book, as it were.

I have no counter argument to convince you otherwise, but I can see why your arguments are framed the way that they are.

Socialism without woo is worse than the gulag, I swear.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 08-30-2018 5:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 08-31-2018 6:14 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-31-2018 11:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 134 of 137 (838958)
08-31-2018 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
08-30-2018 8:08 PM


Re: Who Do You Say That I am?
The question was "How would you even have heard of Jesus if it had not been for the written stories codified in the Bibles?"

The authors of the stories heard about it locally, they were on site at the times Jesus lived or very shortly after his death.

But that was two thousand years ago.

How would you even have heard of Jesus if it had not been for the written stories codified in the Bibles?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 08-30-2018 8:08 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15599
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 135 of 137 (838969)
08-31-2018 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
08-30-2018 8:08 PM


Re: Who Do You Say That I am?
Phat writes:

Your entire mental thought process requires hard evidence before you even entertain the idea of belief.


This is another thing that I can keep repeating as long as you keep getting it wrong. We should always, always, always require hard evidence before even entertaining the possibility of belief. That includes you. Otherwise you'll believe every UFO and Bigfoot and bat-baby story you hear.

Phat writes:

Since you have yet to find satisfactory evidence for a God or for Jesus being a living Spirit today, you resort to the only evidence you have...the book which describes it all (except for later added dogma) and you limit any possibility of belief by the common error of "putting God in a box" or book, as it were.


It isn't "resorting" to the book. You need to understand that the book is the only real source that you have for your belief. In Message 129 I asked you how else you would even know anything about Jesus. In Message 130 you said you'd use the same method as the authors of the book. But they were there. At least they heard the stories second-hand and third-hand from people who were there. You are not hearing the stories twentieth and thirtieth hand from people who were there. You're only hearing them from the book.

So don't be so quick to throw the book away just because you don't like what it says.

Phat writes:

I can see why your arguments are framed the way that they are.


Clearly not. You keep getting it wrong every time.

Phat writes:

Socialism without woo is worse than the gulag, I swear.


That's just a really stupid thing to say. You should apologise for wasting my time with that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 08-30-2018 8:08 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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