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Author Topic:   Modern Democratic Socialized Capitalism is not Evil
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1825
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 16 of 32 (824823)
12-04-2017 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by nwr
12-04-2017 12:31 AM


Re: I'm not seeing the point
squirrel wrote

You would need to sell this idea to a significant bunch of Republican voters.

Nice thought. But after 60 years of watching them....i mean EVEN Susan Collins of Maine?? The GOP is now the only political party I have seen in my lifetime who actually wants to KILL their own Americans out loud. Blatantly. Hello.

No. They should all just DIE and get the fuck off the earth. IMNSHO....


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by nwr, posted 12-04-2017 12:31 AM nwr has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 17 of 32 (824825)
12-04-2017 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by RAZD
12-03-2017 11:44 PM


RAZD writes:

Ignoring it here has given us today's republican congress that caters only to the rich (see new tax plan), and they in turn have given us Trump.

fwiw, I'm of the same opinion but less rabid about it - possibly because I don't have to live in the US and put up with it.

Your problem is that the solutions are there, you just have to vote for them or build them but seemingly the US voter doesn't want the sort of economy you want.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by RAZD, posted 12-03-2017 11:44 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 12-04-2017 11:08 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 18 of 32 (824844)
12-04-2017 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
12-03-2017 6:45 PM


Re: Common Ownership
New Cat's Eye writes:

They're also profitable...


The operative word is "some", as opposed to the "human nature" that Phat claimed. Some people desire more profit or more power.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-03-2017 6:45 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 11:22 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 19 of 32 (824847)
12-04-2017 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tangle
12-04-2017 2:44 AM


Conservatives vs Liberals
...seemingly the US voter doesn't want the sort of economy you want.

When they say they want to make America great again, they are living in the past. They want to make America like it was after the aberration. They want life to be as potentially profitable as it was back before the deficit and wars and global competition burst our dream bubble.

I know I sometimes wish for more fairness but the conservatives wont support me. they claim that I had my chance and blew it and they wont support me or my kind.

Unconscious Reactions Separate Liberals and Conservatives
Notable:

quote:
In The Righteous Mind, Haidt identifies several areas of morality. Liberals, he says, tend to value two of them: caring for people who are vulnerable and fairness, which for liberals tends to mean sharing resources equally. Conservatives care about those things, too, but for them, fairness means proportionality—that people should get what they deserve based on the amount of effort they have put in.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2017 2:44 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11841
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 20 of 32 (824852)
12-04-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
12-03-2017 11:46 PM


Re: Common Ownership
Me in msg 11 writes:

RAZD writes:

It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions.

What is your route for going about it? And what's stopping you?

RAZD has acknowledged this reply

You really have no answers for these questions? What are you going on about, then?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 12-03-2017 11:46 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 12-05-2017 3:47 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11841
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 21 of 32 (824854)
12-04-2017 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
12-04-2017 10:57 AM


Re: Common Ownership
Yeah, oligarchies exist because some people want to get ahead and also because they work well at doing that.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 10:57 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 11:26 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply
 Message 23 by RAZD, posted 12-05-2017 3:40 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 22 of 32 (824856)
12-04-2017 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 11:22 AM


Re: Common Ownership
New Cat's Eye writes:

Yeah, oligarchies exist because some people want to get ahead and also because they work well at doing that.


And the sky is blue. And water is wet. Thanks for your contribution.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 11:22 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 23 of 32 (824952)
12-05-2017 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 11:22 AM


Re: Common Ownership
Yeah, oligarchies exist because some people want to get ahead ...

... and some people are sociopaths that don't care diddly about other people. Not surprisingly capitalism appears to selects for sociopaths to run ruthless companies, as they are disproportionately represented.

... and also because they work well at doing that.

... like I said, sociopaths prosper under capitalism.

Oligarchies exist because rich and powerful people are remarkably effective at getting their way and suppressing poor people. Again, the recent tax bill for example, through corrupting the republican party. Read Howard Zinn for starters.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 11:22 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 24 of 32 (824955)
12-05-2017 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 11:18 AM


Re: Common Ownership
So now you're going to stalk me because I don't jump to your tune?

What is your route for going about it? And what's stopping you?

Raising peoples awareness for starters. Like yours.

Because you are (a) in denial about the value of democracy v oligarchy and (b) your actual value. Just because you make more than other people and are comfortable in your economic situation, because you are doing better than those on minimum wage.

Curiously, I would have thought that was self evident.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 11:18 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2017 4:30 PM RAZD has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11841
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 25 of 32 (824961)
12-05-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
12-05-2017 3:47 PM


Re: Common Ownership
From Message 23:

Yeah, oligarchies exist because some people want to get ahead ...

... and some people are sociopaths that don't care diddly about other people.

Also, there are perfectly normal people who go all amoral when making business decisions. It's like "It's just business!" is supposed to be some bullshit phrase where you don't have to act morally, or something.

I dunno, it's weird.

Not surprisingly capitalism appears to selects for sociopaths to run ruthless companies, as they are disproportionately represented.

It's a lot easier to make amoral business decisions when you don't have morals to begin with.

Oligarchies exist because rich and powerful people are remarkably effective at getting their way and suppressing poor people.

Oligarchies are also an effective way to run a business.

From Message 24:

Raising peoples awareness for starters. Like yours.

I'll let you know if/when it gets raised.

Because you are (a) in denial about the value of democracy v oligarchy

Where did I deny that?

(b) your actual value.

I think that was supposed to be me being in denial of my actual value. It's not that I deny it, its that I don't care about it.

Just because you make more than other people and are comfortable in your economic situation, because you are doing better than those on minimum wage.

That's a lie.

Curiously, I would have thought that was self evident.

Sorry, I assumed you were better than this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 12-05-2017 3:47 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2017 11:35 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 26 of 32 (824999)
12-06-2017 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by New Cat's Eye
12-05-2017 4:30 PM


Re: Common Ownership
Also, there are perfectly normal people who go all amoral when making business decisions. It's like "It's just business!" is supposed to be some bullshit phrase where you don't have to act morally, or something.

I dunno, it's weird.

Not surprisingly capitalism appears to selects for sociopaths to run ruthless companies, as they are disproportionately represented.

It's a lot easier to make amoral business decisions when you don't have morals to begin with.

So we agree that capitalism rewards sociopathic behavior in running companies, and whether or not they were originally sociopathic or became sociopathic in the running of a company is not really relevant, other than that the second could be curable.

Oligarchies exist because rich and powerful people are remarkably effective at getting their way and suppressing poor people.

Oligarchies are also an effective way to run a business.

Curiously effectiveness does not necessarily equal good or equitable. A Roman galley powered by slaves is an effective machine. A Greek one powered by cooperation of soldiers/volunteers is also an effective machine.

Because you are (a) in denial about the value of democracy v oligarchy

Where did I deny that?

Well I kinda get that impression every time you say things like "Oligarchies are also an effective way to run a business" and (Message 96) "I think another part of it is that it's harder to get a bunch of people to agree and take responsibility for everything than it is to just have one motherfucker in charge of the whole thing."

I think that was supposed to be me being in denial of my actual value. It's not that I deny it, its that I don't care about it.

Well, that's one way to resolve cognitive dissonance.

That's a lie.

You are free to think so.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2017 4:30 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-06-2017 8:45 PM RAZD has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 27 of 32 (825008)
12-06-2017 12:42 PM


Well RAZ, you're still railing against the system, what you're not doing is explaining why it will change. Apart from a worker uprising of course.

The problem you have is that capitalism is an effective system and it's been rewarded by structural advantages in the form of taxation policies, ownership rights, investment and lending structures, business law and, particularly in your country, a cult of the individual and personal achievement.

Alternative methods of company formations are of course possible - the co-op being the most obvious - but despite the USA having the largest proportion of these, they're still a minority interest. Here in the UK co-ops are 0.7% of the economy and 75% or so are in retail, 15% or so is agriculture and sports and social clubs. Until the financial crash there was a relatively large chunk of money in mutual savings companies - our building societies - but they were almost all carpet bagged by real capitalists.

But here's the problem, most people with money to invest will wish to get all the benefits of their risk and investment, not share it out with others who didn't take the risk.

Co-ops were invented to help those who didn't have money to pool their limited resources and do more than they could individually, hence the mutuals and agricultural co-ops, but they don't have a huge cash fund at start unlike the more capitalist systems.

They also often have difficulty with decision making and investment making and are generally small scale and slow. There are of course exceptions - Mondragon is a good one.

The question to answer is why would an individual entrepreneur or venture cap company choose the structure of a co-op rather than a standard ltd company? In my opinion he'd mostly only do it if he can't raise finance, because if he can, he get to keep the gain. And why wouldn't you want to do that?

The key trick is to change human nature.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11841
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 28 of 32 (825051)
12-06-2017 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by RAZD
12-06-2017 11:35 AM


Re: Common Ownership
Curiously effectiveness does not necessarily equal good or equitable.

Sure, but it determines success. Don't you think oligarchies are more effective than co-ops, be it good or bad? Isn't that a part of why they've been more successful?

Because you are (a) in denial about the value of democracy v oligarchy

Where did I deny that?

Well I kinda get that impression every time you say things like "Oligarchies are also an effective way to run a business" and (Message 96) "I think another part of it is that it's harder to get a bunch of people to agree and take responsibility for everything than it is to just have one motherfucker in charge of the whole thing."

But I'm not denying the value of co-ops. I'm just recognizing a particular value of oligarchies there. Your impression is irrational and untrue.

Look, I get it. Co-ops are cool. I just don't see them working as well and I'm not sure how your goal is going to be accomplished.

Here, what if I used a different approach:

Dude, I'm so convinced. It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions. Here's my questions:

What is your route for going about it? And what's stopping you?

I think that was supposed to be me being in denial of my actual value. It's not that I deny it, its that I don't care about it.

Well, that's one way to resolve cognitive dissonance.

But I'm not dissonant

That's a lie.

You are free to think so.

It's also true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2017 11:35 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by RAZD, posted 12-09-2017 12:11 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 29 of 32 (825173)
12-09-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by New Cat's Eye
12-06-2017 8:45 PM


Common Opportunity
Sure, but it determines success. Don't you think oligarchies are more effective than co-ops, be it good or bad? Isn't that a part of why they've been more successful?

Depends on your definitions of effective and success.

Compare Oligarchy Health Insurance in the US with socialist Health Care in Canada. Do they make more money? Yes. Does that make them more effective?

Do they do a better job of providing healthcare? No. Does that make them more successful?

Dude, I'm so convinced. It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions. Here's my questions:

What is your route for going about it? ...

Education, political advocating, raising people's awareness, communication, demonstrations, etc

... And what's stopping you?

What makes you think I'm stopped. Or that it will happen overnight?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-06-2017 8:45 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-10-2017 10:50 AM RAZD has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11841
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 30 of 32 (825232)
12-10-2017 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by RAZD
12-09-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Common Opportunity
Sure, but it determines success. Don't you think oligarchies are more effective than co-ops, be it good or bad? Isn't that a part of why they've been more successful?

Depends on your definitions of effective and success.

In this context, it is the effectiveness of the running of the business and it is measured by how successful that business is - that is, how much business they are doing.

Oligarchies do more business than co-ops and so they are more successful. The question is why. Your explanation is basically that people are evil. I'm saying that from a business perspective, oligarchies work better.

Dude, I'm so convinced. It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions. Here's my questions:

What is your route for going about it? ...

Education, political advocating, raising people's awareness, communication, demonstrations, etc

How's that working out for you?

... And what's stopping you?

What makes you think I'm stopped.

I see a lot of oligarchies and not very many co-ops. The oligarchies seem to be winning.

Or that it will happen overnight?

It is certainly not happening overnight. Is it happening at all?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by RAZD, posted 12-09-2017 12:11 PM RAZD has not yet responded

  
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