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Author Topic:   Modern Democratic Socialized Capitalism is not Evil
dwise1
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Message 31 of 43 (825292)
12-11-2017 3:12 PM


What Joe Republican Forgets
Today on the radio (Sirius XM Progress), I heard Thom Hartman read this. This is the version (which appears to be identical to what had been read) reposted by Sandy Goodman on Huffington Post as What Joe Republican Forgets -- she states that she had gotten it from Hartman's site:

quote:

August 29th, 2004 9:38 pm
Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican
by John Gray

Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.

All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employers medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe’s bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe’s employer pays these standards because Joe’s employer doesn’t want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he’ll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn’t think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe’s deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe’s money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.

Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans. The house didn’t have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural
Republican’s would still be sitting in the dark)

He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn’t have to. [Joe also forgot that he doesn’t have to worry about dad’s medical bills because his father is on Medicare. sg] After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.

He turns on a radio talk show, the host’s keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn’t tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day) Joe agrees, “We don’t need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I’m a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have”.


What has made us such a successful species is that we are social animals. We live together and work together towards common goals. Individually, we are weak and defenseless, but together we can build entire cities and nations. We all depend on others as they depend on us. That is our social contract with each other.


Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-11-2017 6:14 PM dwise1 has responded

    
jar
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(1)
Message 32 of 43 (825300)
12-11-2017 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by dwise1
12-11-2017 3:12 PM


Re: What Joe Republican Forgets
What is missing from that is the acknowledgement that Joe Republican has forgotten that in the past it was Republicans that helped with many if not most of those issues. Theodore Roosevelt and Eisenhower and Nixon and even Goldwater were among the voices fighting for many of those things.

Today's Republican have no connection to the Grand Old Party.


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This message is a reply to:
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Rrhain
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Message 33 of 43 (825444)
12-14-2017 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
12-11-2017 6:14 PM


Re: What Joe Republican Forgets
jar writes:

quote:
What is missing from that is the acknowledgement that Joe Republican has forgotten that in the past it was Republicans that helped with many if not most of those issues. Theodore Roosevelt and Eisenhower and Nixon and even Goldwater were among the voices fighting for many of those things.

Incorrect.

In fact, Republicans led the fights against most of those things.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

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dwise1
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Message 34 of 43 (825450)
12-15-2017 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
12-11-2017 6:14 PM


Re: What Joe Republican Forgets
What is missing from that is the acknowledgement that Joe Republican has forgotten that in the past it was Republicans that helped with many if not most of those issues.

No, what you're not getting is that Joe Republican denigrates in extreme terms those who had worked and fought so hard to provide him with a decent life. And he denigrates them so savagely regardless of who they were or what political party they were a part of, even the ones who were Republicans. And that he is so deluded as to believe that he got where he is with no help from anybody else. I have actually met people in the wild who think that and whom I would love to see dropped all alone, naked, and with zero supplies into a wilderness so we can come back later to see the marvelous civilization that they built all by themselves. We really should at least give them a steel knife, but that would deprive them of the joy and personal satisfaction of not having to depend on anybody else.

IOW, that piece is not about actual history, but rather the deluded world-view of modern Republicans.

And from what I understand, both major parties were courting Eisenhower and he didn't really have any strong ideological ties with the GOP.

Today's Republican have no connection to the Grand Old Party.

Amen to that, brother! The wing-nut fringe has taken over. Looks like we may be heading for a 3 or 4 party system: progressives, corporation-moderates (of both colors, or not), and the wing-nuts (including the theocratic Christians eager to brown-nose up to the Anti-Christ for the promise of secular power).

PS

A Repugnican troll tried to throw the Dixie-crats at me to proclaim that the Democratic Party is the party of slavery and racism. I reminded him that a lot has changed in 1.5 centuries (as in former Mexican President Portillo's remark of "It's been a long time since we've worn feathers.") and I challenged him to go to a KKK rally and start pulling their hoods off looking for a Democrat -- unfortunately, under Trump they feel so emboldened that they have stopped wearing hoods.

There is history, things and parties change, and there is a history of how a party has changed. A review of how the two major parties have changed should be interesting.

Edited by dwise1, : PS


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RAZD
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Message 35 of 43 (825496)
12-15-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by New Cat's Eye
12-10-2017 10:50 AM


Re: Common Opportunity
Oligarchies do more business than co-ops and so they are more successful. The question is why. Your explanation is basically that people are evil. ...

Not quite, capitalism is sociopathic and attracts sociopaths. There is no room in prConsider ofit for empathy.

Why are they more successful? Consider their massive ad and propaganda campaign against socialism, their purchase of government officials\reps\etc, and the fact that the average american is ill informed and gullible.

Co-ops are less likely to blow their horn and advocate for more co-ops, but everyone seems to buy into the idea that any new business needs to have an owner/boss and an oligarchic organization. Try getting a loan to start a new business. There is a systemic bias to oligarchic organizations.

How's that working out for you?

Well enough. Athens wasn't built in a day, but it was built through democratic process.

Here in town we have a cooperative venture that acts as an incubator for new business, regardless of organization, to provide help getting started. It is a big success.

Enjoy


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by our ability to understand
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RAZD
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Message 36 of 43 (825946)
12-19-2017 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by RAZD
12-15-2017 11:18 AM


Community utilities
Here in town we have a cooperative venture that acts as an incubator for new business, regardless of organization, to provide help getting started. It is a big success.

Most of these are involved in the food industry, with fully certified inspected kitchens to help them get started.

We also have an artist district that is tax free.

So I am working with some other residents to build a Town Solar/wind/water Power system, initially to power just the Town buildings, but capable of expanding to service people in town. This has already been done in several places, so we are not inventing anything here. This would also allow people who don't have suitable locations on their property to participate by investing in panels. We also have a lot of historic buildings, so they could obtain solar power without panels on the buildiings.

And I have started working with the same people to set up a Town community internet service, initially to provide free internet in the town core, but capable of expanding to service people in town. Again this has already been done elsewhere.

We figure that if we can provide cheap dependable power and internet services that businesses will find the town an attractive place to set up.

Enjoy


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RAZD
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Message 37 of 43 (825975)
12-20-2017 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by RAZD
12-19-2017 3:26 PM


Educate Yourself

Now I think he overstates some of the historical aspects, but the message is clear

socialism + democracy + capitalistic economy

Works.

There are many examples of working socialistic capitalistic democracies.

Note: I was most surprised by the Catalan history, and that enriches my understanding of the dispute between the Catalans and the Spanish government.

Enjoy


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RAZD
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Message 38 of 43 (825977)
12-20-2017 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by New Cat's Eye
12-10-2017 10:50 AM


Re: Common Opportunity
Oligarchies do more business than co-ops and so they are more successful. ...

Only because of sheer numbers. When they are compared on businesses in the same market the cooperatives do better. And they certainly are better work environments for the workers.

... I'm saying that from a business perspective, oligarchies work better.

Which is just your opinion. Heavily biased by your personal opinion of what "works better" means.

Take any company you like and replace the oligarchy hierarchy management with a democratically elected hierarchy, where all the people are doing the same jobs, can you honestly say that one is better than the other?

Enjoy


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Tangle
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Message 39 of 43 (825991)
12-20-2017 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by RAZD
12-20-2017 9:56 AM


Re: Common Opportunity
RAZD writes:

Only because of sheer numbers. When they are compared on businesses in the same market the cooperatives do better. And they certainly are better work environments for the workers.

Can you provide evidence for those two statements?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
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RAZD
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Message 40 of 43 (825994)
12-20-2017 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Tangle
12-20-2017 12:49 PM


Re: Common Opportunity
Can you provide evidence for those two statements?

quote:
The Mondragon Corporation is a corporation and federation of worker cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain. It was founded in the town of Mondragon in 1956 by graduates of a local technical college. Its first product was paraffin heaters. It is the tenth-largest Spanish company in terms of asset turnover and the leading business group in the Basque Country. At the end of 2014, it employed 74,117 people in 257 companies and organizations in four areas of activity: finance, industry, retail and knowledge.[3] By 2015, 74,335 people were employed.

Is an obvious one. Less known is

quote:
Legacoop (Lega Nazionale delle Cooperative e Mutue) is a cooperative federation located in Italy. Legacoop consists of several associations of cooperatives, providing coordination and advocating on the members cooperatives' behalf.

The Federazione Nazionale delle Cooperative was founded in 1886 in Milan by delegates representing cooperative enterprises. In 1893, the federation changed its name to Lega delle Cooperative. At the time the federation included Catholic groups in solidarity with secular/socialist groups. In 1919, the Catholic cooperatives split and formed the Confederazione delle Cooperative Italiane. In the 1920s, the fascist government disposed of cooperatives and unions and the organization was disbanded.[1]

After World War II, Legacoop reformed. Article 45 of the Italian Constitution recognized the social role of cooperatives as based on mutuality and non-profit goals, and involved the government in promoting its development. Cooperatives have flourished in Italy since and are a widespread presence nationwide.


These continue to grow and expand because they work, because they are better corporation models that give back to society rather than take take take.

The cooperatives reduce unemployment and improve their local economy via feedback from cooperatives to the society.

They exist because they are successful.

But the real evidence is in the initial descriptions on this thread:

quote:
... Cooperative businesses are typically more economically resilient than many other forms of enterprise, with twice the number of co-operatives (80%) surviving their first five years compared with other business ownership models (41%).[5] ...

That to me says they do better in one on one comparisons.

quote:
The 5 Most Successful Work Environments (and the 5 Worst)

First, the best:
1. The 'open skeptic' environment
2. The individual-focused environment
3. The no-walls environment
4. The mutual-feedback environment
5. The unified environment

Then, of course, we have the worst:
1. The 9-to-5 environment
2. The 'compartment' environment
3. The sink-or-swim environment
4. The punitive environment
5. The class-system environment


Reading through these you will see that the best environments allow the individual worker to have input/say in how he participates, while the worst environments are dictatorial.

A worker cooperative by definition involves workers in decisions that involve their work environment, while oligarchies by definition are dictatorial at some level such that workers would not have the same degrees of input.

Similar to citizens in countries that are either democratic (social involvement) or oligarchic (dictatorial).

Enjoy


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RAZD
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(3)
Message 41 of 43 (825996)
12-20-2017 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by RAZD
12-20-2017 1:46 PM


Capitalism/trickle-down


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Tangle
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Message 42 of 43 (826013)
12-20-2017 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by RAZD
12-20-2017 1:46 PM


Re: Common Opportunity
Phat writes:

These continue to grow and expand because they work, because they are better corporation models that give back to society rather than take take take.

The cooperatives reduce unemployment and improve their local economy via feedback from cooperatives to the society.

They exist because they are successful.

There are many individual examples of successful co-operatives, I provided you with the Mondragon one. Here in the UK one of our most successful retailers is a profit sharing co-op John Lewis, and the archaetypal co-operative is our Co-op - another retailer.

Individual instances of co-ops are interesting, but they are the exception - by a very long way. You have to show why you think that co-ops have a better business model than the demonstrably more successful limited company thay post dates them.

forms of enterprise, with twice the number of co-operatives (80%) surviving their first five years compared with other business ownership models (41%).[5] ...

This is terrible analysis. Co-ops generally populate specific markets, predominantly low margin, low skill, low tech area like agriculture - where there are exceptions they tend to be commoditised such as mutual banks and savings societies and retail groups. To compare them with the total market is just silly. How many co-ops are hi-tech and entrepreneurial for example? Business failure is a natural result of innovation - it's how evolution itself works.

Reading through these you will see that the best environments allow the individual worker to have input/say in how he participates, while the worst environments are dictatorial.

Whether this is true or simply your hope in this case is irrelevant because all these models exist in every company form. They are not restricted to co-ops.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by RAZD, posted 12-20-2017 1:46 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
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Posts: 19407
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 43 of 43 (826048)
12-21-2017 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by New Cat's Eye
12-10-2017 10:50 AM


Cooperative Association Organization
One of the things that stands out where cooperatives are most successful is where there is an umbrella organization, for instance

quote:
The Mondragon Corporation is a corporation and federation of worker cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain. It was founded in the town of Mondragon in 1956 by graduates of a local technical college. Its first product was paraffin heaters. It is the tenth-largest Spanish company in terms of asset turnover and the leading business group in the Basque Country. At the end of 2014, it employed 74,117 people in 257 companies and organizations in four areas of activity: finance, industry, retail and knowledge.[3] By 2015, 74,335 people were employed.

Mondragon cooperatives operate in accordance with the Statement on the Co-operative Identity maintained by the International Co-operative Alliance.


quote:
The International Co-operative Alliance (ICA) is a non-governmental co-operative federation or, more precisely, a co-operative union representing co-operatives and the co-operative movement worldwide. It was founded in 1895 to unite, represent and serve co-operatives worldwide. The Alliance maintains the internationally recognised definition of a co-operative in the Statement on the Co-operative Identity.[1] The ICA represents 284 co-operative federations and organisations in 95 countries.[2]

The Alliance provides a global voice and forum for knowledge, expertise and co-ordinated action for and about co-operatives. The members of the Alliance are international and national co-operative organisations from all sectors of the economy, including agriculture, banking, consumer, fisheries, health, housing, insurance, and workers. The Alliance has members from 100 countries, representing close to one billion individuals worldwide. Around one hundred million people work for co-operatives globally. Co-operatives are values based businesses owned by their members. Whether they are customers, employees or residents, the members get an equal say in the business and a share of the profits.


quote:
The Statement on the Co-operative Identity, promulgated by the International Co-operative Alliance (ICA), defines and guides co-operatives worldwide. It contains the definition of a co-operative as a special form of organization, the values of co-operatives, and the currently accepted cooperative principles (the Rochdale Principles) that direct their behavior and operation. The Statement with the latest revision of the cooperative principles was adopted by ICA in 1995.

According to the Statement, a co-operative is defined as "an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly owned and democratically controlled enterprise." Co-operatives "are based on the values of self-help, self-responsibility, democracy, equality, equity and solidarity. In the tradition of co-operative founders, co-operative members believe in the ethical values of honesty, openness, social responsibility and caring for others."

References
Statement on the Co-operative Identity


In addition to the Values noted above, the statement lists 7 principles:

  1. Voluntary and Open Membership
  2. Democratic Member Control
  3. Member Economic Participation
  4. Autonomy and Independence
  5. Education, Training and Information
  6. Co-operation among Co-operatives
  7. Concern for Community

Therefore to promote cooperatives the best approach would be through an umbrella organization following this structure that provides education, information and support -- an "incubator" for new cooperatives.

Companies run by the people, for the people, of the people ...

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : repurposed duplicate post


we are limited in our ability to understand
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