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Author Topic:   Religious Special Pleading
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 357 (829272)
03-05-2018 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tangle
03-04-2018 3:05 PM


Our secular institutions. That's their job.
What do your secular institutions say about circumcision? I remember looking into this a couple of years ago for an argument here, and I was unable to uncover much pro/con on the practice healthwise with there being some disputable minor advantages to being circumcised for some folk. I don't see much of a reason for the state to be involved. We would not want the state involved in gender changing surgery decisions. Is this simply a case of personal animus?
With regard to the religious implications, the New Testament is pretty clear that it is not a required religious practice for non-Jews, but at least at the time I was a kid, it was very widely practiced.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2018 3:05 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Tangle, posted 03-05-2018 4:34 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 357 (829285)
03-05-2018 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tangle
03-05-2018 4:34 AM


We allow a harmful practice purely for supersticious religious reasons.
My question is directed at whether or not the practice of male circumcision is harmful. You say it is. But is that any kind of official position. I haven't been able to find any such thing, and I did try.
Is this simply a case of personal animus?
Yes, I personally dislike most silly religious beliefs, but putting that aside, is the practice harmful to individuals and society? I think so..
Can you do any better than that?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Tangle, posted 03-05-2018 4:34 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Coyote, posted 03-05-2018 12:38 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 17 by Modulous, posted 03-05-2018 2:43 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 18 by Tangle, posted 03-05-2018 3:19 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 357 (829290)
03-05-2018 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Coyote
03-05-2018 12:38 PM


For starters, lets call it by its proper name: male genital mutilation.
Wow. That's awful helpful, Coyote. Are you going to stick around for the discussion?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Coyote, posted 03-05-2018 12:38 PM Coyote has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 357 (829310)
03-05-2018 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Modulous
03-05-2018 2:43 PM


Well it removes the foreskin. If you did that to me without my consent I'd sue the crap out of you. And I'd be successful in asserting harm was caused and easily win if I could demonstrate you committed the act or you admitted it.
Is causing harm to someone who doesn't recognize they were harmed not actually causing harm to them?
Nobody is trying to remove your foreskin. If, in fact, that was what was going on, unquestionably it would wrong.
Supposedly removing the foreskin has some positive impact. There is little to no evidence that it is harmful. Parents also have their kid's ears pierced and their tonsils removed without any kind of informed consent on the part of the child. And yes, for some folks, there is a religious component to the practice of circumcision.
Folk also elect to remove their sex organs, to pierce their belly buttons and nipples, and to donate their kidneys. I expect you would also sue the crap out of someone if did that to you without your consent. So, is that observation really any part of a great argument?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Modulous, posted 03-05-2018 2:43 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Modulous, posted 03-06-2018 1:14 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 357 (829382)
03-06-2018 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Modulous
03-06-2018 1:14 PM


Exactly the point I was making. Glad you agree. It is wrong because it is harmful. If it's harmful to non-consenting adult, I can't see how it is not harmful to a week old baby
I did not agree that it was harmful. I agreed that you had a right to bodily integrity. You have the right not to allow circumcision to be performed on you even if it has a positive impact on your health. What I asked others, and what I now ask you is for evidence that circumcision is harmful.
Apparently, nobody is willing to do more than assert that circumcision is harmful. Is everyone going to join the Coyote heap on that issue?
I certainly question the ethics of piercing a baby's ears.
Okay, well at least your position is internally consistent. I am not in favor of the state getting involved in decisions regarding piercing the ears of toddlers even if you find yourself willing to "question the ethics".
I'll note here that you take it further to discuss piercing the ears of a 10-year-old who does not want it done. Yes, that is questionable. But I am not really addressing that issue.
Do you think it is ethically justifiable to remove children's genitals entirely or to harvest their organs for non-therapeutic reasons?
Is that what circumcision is? Is it non-therapeutic? Is it removing genital's entirely? If so, then the state should be involved. I'll even agree that the state should be involved at some point where the harm is lower than that. But is circumcision that point. Do you have an argument that does not extend the question to amputating a babies penis or clitoris?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Modulous, posted 03-06-2018 1:14 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Modulous, posted 03-06-2018 1:38 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 26 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2018 1:57 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 31 of 357 (829412)
03-06-2018 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Tangle
03-06-2018 1:57 PM


You obviously missed my reply at 18 above.
I did not see it before. I don't think it answers much now that I have seen it. What about it does not apply equally well to dental implants, or breast reduction surgery, or a nose job? What suggests that the state should be involved in stopping the practice of circumcision but not tattooing?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2018 1:57 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2018 3:44 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 357 (829433)
03-07-2018 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Tangle
03-07-2018 3:44 AM


If an adult wants elective/cosmetic surgery with all its risks, then ok, so long as it's within the law - ie done by a regulated practitioner. But I would not allow it for babies and children.
No, I haven't forgotten consent. However, as I understand it, circumcision is performed by regulated practitioners and is believed to have a medical purpose as well as a religious one. For that reason, it might well be reasonable for an adult to elect that for his child. In my opinion, the issue is a close one, and for now, the state seems to stay out of it.
I am not aware of concerns regarding circumcision that are similar to FGM. I am welcome to hear some. I spent some time a couple of years ago looking into the issue after someone here, I believe it was jar, challenged me on it. I was unable to come up with a medical reason to interfere with the parent's choice on the matter.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2018 3:44 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2018 6:51 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 357 (829469)
03-07-2018 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Tangle
03-07-2018 6:51 AM


Then you will be aware that Jewish law requires circumcision of babies within 8 days of birth and.....
What happens if you don't participate?
My remarks apply to places other than Israel where the decision on whether or not to circumcise is left up to the parents, even though the decision may have a religious component. If the state is going to intervene in a parental decision, then I would expect the discussion to revolve around the risks, health benefits or lack thereof of the procedure, and the downsides. If you cannot make your case on that basis then as far as I am concerned, you have no case.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2018 6:51 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 03-08-2018 2:56 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 357 (829488)
03-08-2018 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Tangle
03-08-2018 2:56 AM


the punishment for not being circumcised in rabbinic Judaism is believed to be "Karet", being cut off; meaning premature death at the hand of G-d (Mo'ed Katan 28a) and a severe spiritual punishment, the "soul's being cut off," and not being granted a share in the world to come (Hilchot Teshuvah 8:1,5)
So you aren't Jewish anymore?
I have told you twice now that over 200 children die every year in the USA alone as a direct result of circumcision
That is not a balanced statement of the risks and benefits. I understand that circumcision is a tiny percentage of all neonatal deaths and that the deaths are primarily the result of infection, meaning that they are likely preventable. The numbers I have seen are on the order of about half of what you claim here.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 03-08-2018 2:56 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Tangle, posted 03-08-2018 6:53 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 357 (829501)
03-08-2018 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Tangle
03-08-2018 6:53 AM


I have provided the benefits. There is a direct causal and immediate risk from circumcision.
There are direct risks associated with everything including vaccinating your child. We don't, as policy, avoid all risks.
Leaving the decision until the age of majority would make little difference to any future benefits. The balance is therefore against. The practice is also not done for any supposed benefits, it's purely religious.
You are not correct about the procedure not being done for any supposed benefits. But again, that would seem to be the parent's call, and not yours.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Tangle, posted 03-08-2018 6:53 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 03-08-2018 4:50 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
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