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Author Topic:   Religious Special Pleading
Faith
Member
Posts: 28895
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 136 of 354 (829992)
03-19-2018 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Astrophile
03-19-2018 7:38 PM


If Jews weren't circumcised, would it make any difference to the practice of their religion? Would it make being Jewish impossible if the Jews took to delaying the operation until the boy or man was of an age to decide for himself whether he wanted to be circumcised?

Yes, it would make a huge difference because circumcision is THE sign of their Jewishness, their belonging to Jehovah, decreed by God to Abraham, and decreed to be done on the 8th day after birth.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Astrophile, posted 03-19-2018 7:38 PM Astrophile has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 137 of 354 (830041)
03-20-2018 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Tangle
03-18-2018 3:50 PM


Tangle writes:

... progressive societies ban things that are proven to be harmful and unban or regulate/licence things that are not or that have been proven to be harmful when prohibited.


And circumcision has not been "proven to be harmful". It can occasionally have harmful effects in some cases, just as abortion, alcohol, marijuana, etc. can have harmful effects in some cases. Progressive societies understand that you can't eliminate harmful effects just by banning something and they understand that sometimes the ban has harmful effects too.

Tangle writes:

When we know things are harmful but can't or don't want to prohibit them, we make them available only to adults who are capable of making informed decisions.


And, in the case of medical procedures, we let adults make the decision for minors under their care.

Tangle writes:

Would we allow a new religious organisation to cut the penis's of baby boys?


We'd have to, because of the legal precedent.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2018 3:50 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Tangle, posted 03-20-2018 7:20 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 138 of 354 (830043)
03-20-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Modulous
03-18-2018 4:20 PM


Modulous writes:

And you are arguing that the views of the majority should be imposed on the minority.


I agree with the principles of democracy, yes.

And remember that the minority is not forcing the minorities to circumcise their children. The majority is allowing the minority to make individual decisions.

Modulous writes:

I see - so those parents that beat their children, rape them, murder them, neglect them, etc etc etc are only harming themselves - so it should be permissible?


I didn't use the word "only".

Modulous writes:

There is utility in educating children that is lacking in the circumcision discussion.


Sez you. Muslims and Jews could argue that their religions contribute to the general welfare much like education does.

Modulous writes:

That's fine - but the argument 'if Doctors do it, it is not harmful' is still defeated.


Nobody made that argument. My argument is that circumcision is an accepted medical procedure, so you can't override the medical profession with your view that it's yucky.

Modulous writes:

The argument 'the human body is self-repairing' is still defeated as a justification for the practice.


Congratulations on convincing yourself but the argument still stands. If it repairs itself to the extent that the recipient can't tell the difference, it can't be considered damage.

Modulous writes:

So if a parent consents to amputating a child's ears, legs, nose etc - where there is no medical need to do so -- that's cool with you?


We've already been through that. Those procedures make the child visibly different.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Modulous, posted 03-18-2018 4:20 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Modulous, posted 03-20-2018 5:14 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 139 of 354 (830044)
03-20-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Astrophile
03-19-2018 7:23 PM


Astrophile writes:

The child may notice that he is different from other boys and men whom he sees in public lavatories, or in his school lavatory.


I'm sixty-five years old and I've never noticed the difference in anybody. The only reason I know two of my brothers were circumcised is because mom said so. I don't know if I could pick a circumcised penis out of a lineup.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Astrophile, posted 03-19-2018 7:23 PM Astrophile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Astrophile, posted 03-27-2018 7:19 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 140 of 354 (830045)
03-20-2018 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Astrophile
03-19-2018 7:38 PM


Astrophile writes:

If Jews weren't circumcised, would it make any difference to the practice of their religion?


That's for them to decide.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Astrophile, posted 03-19-2018 7:38 PM Astrophile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Astrophile, posted 03-27-2018 7:21 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 141 of 354 (830068)
03-20-2018 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
03-20-2018 12:08 PM



I didn't use the word "only".

Then they aren't equivalent.

Sez you. Muslims and Jews could argue that their religions contribute to the general welfare much like education does.

They can try to argue that the specific religious practice of circumcision has as much utility as education but I've never seen them try, and I'm pretty sure they'd fail.

Nobody made that argument. My argument is that circumcision is an accepted medical procedure, so you can't override the medical profession with your view that it's yucky.

Well what you said was

quote:
There are doctors doing it, so let's let them decide.

I pointed out that doctors doing it is insufficient. If you agree, then we can move on.

I've never made the argument that one should 'override' the medical professionals on the grounds that in my opinion it is yucky. You'll note I've included ethical, legal and medical opinion as to why non-therapeutic circumcision is problematic.

Congratulations on convincing yourself but the argument still stands. If it repairs itself to the extent that the recipient can't tell the difference, it can't be considered damage.

But the recipient can tell the difference, so...

We've already been through that. Those procedures make the child visibly different.

As does circumcision. One of the reasons adults give for getting non-therapeutic circumcision (and the reason some parents give for imposing it on children) is that it looks better. I prefer the look of a circumcised penis, personally - if you can't tell the difference that's your affair - but the fact is that just about everybody else can.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 03-20-2018 12:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 03-21-2018 3:36 PM Modulous has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5871
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 142 of 354 (830081)
03-20-2018 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by ringo
03-20-2018 11:57 AM


Ringo writes:

And circumcision has not been "proven to be harmful".

You have been shown evidence that at least 200 children die as a direct result of circumcision every year in the US alone. You have not challenged this evidence. You are therefore arguing disingenuously. At a minimum.

It can occasionally have harmful effects in some cases,

Minor harms like, say, death.

And, in the case of medical procedures, we let adults make the decision for minors under their care.

Agreed. Necessary medical procedures need to be agreed by parents.

We'd have to, because of the legal precedent.

There would be no precedent. It would simply be a crime.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by ringo, posted 03-20-2018 11:57 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 03-21-2018 3:40 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 143 of 354 (830112)
03-21-2018 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Modulous
03-20-2018 5:14 PM


Modulous writes:

ringo writes:

I didn't use the word "only".


Then they aren't equivalent.

I didn't say they were. I said that parents feel the harm that is done to their children.

Modulous writes:

You'll note I've included ethical, legal and medical opinion as to why non-therapeutic circumcision is problematic.


Then leave it up to the medical profession to solve their own "problem".

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Modulous, posted 03-20-2018 5:14 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Modulous, posted 03-21-2018 4:59 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 144 of 354 (830114)
03-21-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Tangle
03-20-2018 7:20 PM


Tangle writes:

ringo writes:

And circumcision has not been "proven to be harmful".


You have been shown evidence that at least 200 children die as a direct result of circumcision every year in the US alone. You have not challenged this evidence.

You can not argue from "circumcision is harmful in a small minority of cases" to "circumcision is harmful, period."

Tangle writes:

Minor harms like, say, death.


A minority of cases.

Tangle writes:

Necessary medical procedures need to be agreed by parents.


And the necessity also needs to be decided by the parents.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Tangle, posted 03-20-2018 7:20 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Tangle, posted 03-21-2018 3:51 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5871
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 145 of 354 (830115)
03-21-2018 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by ringo
03-21-2018 3:40 PM


Ringo writes:

You can not argue from "circumcision is harmful in a small minority of cases" to "circumcision is harmful, period."

Of course I can. 200 unnecessary deaths is harmful.

A minority of cases.

200 unnecessary deaths. (Which is an underestimate as circumcision is not usualy what is written on the death certificate.)

And the necessity also needs to be decided by the parents.

It's never necessary, by definition.

Would we allow this practice to start to today if we'd never done it?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 03-21-2018 3:40 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 03-21-2018 3:58 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 146 of 354 (830116)
03-21-2018 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Tangle
03-21-2018 3:51 PM


Tangle writes:

200 unnecessary deaths is harmful.


But millions of successful circumcisions are not. So no, you can not argue from the specific to the general.

Tangle writes:

It's never necessary, by definition.


Millions of Jews and Muslims are using a different definition.

Tangle writes:

Would we allow this practice to start to today if we'd never done it?


Apparently yes. Non-Jewish and non-Muslim doctors started doing it for non-religious reasons.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Tangle, posted 03-21-2018 3:51 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Tangle, posted 03-21-2018 4:31 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5871
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 147 of 354 (830119)
03-21-2018 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by ringo
03-21-2018 3:58 PM


Ringo writes:

But millions of successful circumcisions are not. So no, you can not argue from the specific to the general.

Yes I can. 200 unnecessay deaths. Unnecessary.

Millions of Jews and Muslims are using a different definition.

Yes, that's the problem. They're harming children for irrational, non-medical reasons.

Apparently yes. Non-Jewish and non-Muslim doctors started doing it for non-religious reasons.

Let's try that again. If it had never been done before and today a religion decided to cut mutilate boy's penises for non-medical reasons would we allow it?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 03-21-2018 3:58 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 03-21-2018 4:43 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 148 of 354 (830120)
03-21-2018 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Tangle
03-21-2018 4:31 PM


Tangle writes:

200 unnecessay deaths. Unnecessary.


By that logic, all cars are harmful because some people are killed by cars.

Tangle writes:

They're harming children for irrational, non-medical reasons.


And doctors are doing the same thing for rational medical reasons.

Tangle writes:

Let's try that again. If it had never been done before and today a religion decided to cut mutilate boy's penises for non-medical reasons would we allow it?


Same answer: if doctors were doing it for medical reasons, we couldn't stop people from doing it for religious reasons.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Tangle, posted 03-21-2018 4:31 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Tangle, posted 03-21-2018 4:57 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5871
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 149 of 354 (830122)
03-21-2018 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by ringo
03-21-2018 4:43 PM


Enough.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 03-21-2018 4:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 03-22-2018 11:48 AM Tangle has responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 150 of 354 (830123)
03-21-2018 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by ringo
03-21-2018 3:36 PM


Then they aren't equivalent.

I didn't say they were. I said that parents feel the harm that is done to their children.

quote:
Harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent.

Message 78

Then leave it up to the medical profession to solve their own "problem".

Nah, I think it's best if we include ethics and legal professionals among other stakeholders - including penis-owners.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 03-21-2018 3:36 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 03-22-2018 11:58 AM Modulous has responded

  
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