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Author Topic:   Religious Special Pleading
Faith
Member
Posts: 29541
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 61 of 354 (829542)
03-08-2018 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Modulous
03-08-2018 10:17 PM


Re: How is circumcision harmful?
"Feeling harmed" isn't what I was asking about, that's different from actually being harmed.

OK I didn't know there is an uprising going on. But the guys in the second video aren't talking about any personal sense of harm, it's all abstract, the foreskin is necessary because.... They are protesting an idea rather than an actual harm.

But that's OK, I can go with a law against circumcision for nonreligious reasons, but although there is really no reason for Jewish circumcision either since Christ came, I wouldn't want to prohibit it for them. It's really a political issue, there really isn't any harm, so let it be the parents' choice.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Modulous, posted 03-08-2018 10:17 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Modulous, posted 03-09-2018 12:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 62 of 354 (829552)
03-09-2018 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Modulous
03-08-2018 2:53 PM


Modulous writes:

Welcome to civilization. I'm sorry you don't like it here. Here's hoping that a pregnant loved one isn't given thalidomide by a doctor who thinks like you.


That's a poor example. Once the effect of thalidomide were known, nobody would have wanted it anyway.

A better example is marijuana, which can have some harmful effects but is criminalizing the users an appropriate response?

Modulous writes:

ringo writes:

Trying to ban something that is "harmful" causes more problems than it solves.

Are you sure?


Prohibition of alcohol caused the organized crime problem that still exists today. So yes.

Modulous writes:

ringo writes:

Prohibition doesn't work. It only makes the criminals rich.


That may be true of nouns (although evidence suggests it is not), but you can't jump from what is true of nouns to what is true of verbs (murder, abuse etc).

Those are completely different situations. Murder is harmful to the victim, to his loved ones, even to society as a whole. I'm not banned from murdering because it's harmful to me. The same applies to Child Labour, Child Sexual Abuse, Infanticide, Child Neglect, Giving addictive recreational drugs to children and Corporal punishment.

Modulous writes:

I don't want you, your parents or your institutions deciding what is harmful to me.


That's what I'm saying. I have no desire to stop you from doing anything that's harmful to only you.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Modulous, posted 03-08-2018 2:53 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Modulous, posted 03-09-2018 12:08 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 63 of 354 (829553)
03-09-2018 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Tangle
03-08-2018 4:40 PM


Tangle writes:

Yeh, banning slavery was a disaster.


Think it through. Slavery was banned because it was harmful to the slaves. A was banned from owning B because it was harmful to B. What we're talking about here is banning B from doing something that is harmful to B.

Tangle writes:

You're comparing cicumcision with prohibition? Who exactly is going to get rich when circumcision is banned until the age of 18? Speakeasies for mohels?


Maybe you've heard of abortion. When it was banned, backstreet abortionists did it, some of them out of principle, maybe, but some of them for the money. If you ban circumcision, you criminalize mohels and make the business more lucrative for the unscrupulous ones.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 03-08-2018 4:40 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 03-09-2018 1:50 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 64 of 354 (829554)
03-09-2018 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Modulous
03-08-2018 6:37 PM


Re: How is circumcision harmful?
Modulous writes:

If circumcised men are not bothered by this I can only suppose their glans has become less sensitive due to constant stimulation of that region. That doesn't sound good, does it?


Two of my brothers were circumcised at birth and two of us were not. I'm not even sure how I know that because I have never once heard either of them mention it.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Modulous, posted 03-08-2018 6:37 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Modulous, posted 03-09-2018 12:10 PM ringo has responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 65 of 354 (829556)
03-09-2018 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
03-08-2018 10:42 PM


Re: How is circumcision harmful?
"Feeling harmed" isn't what I was asking about, that's different from actually being harmed.

How do you know if someone has actually been harmed? How do you know if you've been harmed?

It's really a political issue, there really isn't any harm

Before proceeding to that child's genitals with that sharp instrument I'd like you to prove there will be no harm, please. Sound reasonable?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 03-08-2018 10:42 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 66 of 354 (829557)
03-09-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ringo
03-09-2018 10:59 AM


That's a poor example. Once the effect of thalidomide were known, nobody would have wanted it anyway.

Sounds like you do want people telling you that things can be harmful to you. Make up your mind!

A better example is marijuana, which can have some harmful effects but is criminalizing the users an appropriate response?

Yes it is. Babies should not be fed marijuana, it would be abusive. There are basically no benefits and there is risk AND they can't consent to accept those risks.

Prohibition of alcohol caused the organized crime problem that still exists today. So yes.

I didn't realize you were for the legalization of murder and child sexual abuse. I think circumcision is the least of our disagreements.

Those are completely different situations. Murder is harmful to the victim, to his loved ones, even to society as a whole. I'm not banned from murdering because it's harmful to me. The same applies to Child Labour, Child Sexual Abuse, Infanticide, Child Neglect, Giving addictive recreational drugs to children and Corporal punishment.

Yes, that's my point.

That's what I'm saying. I have no desire to stop you from doing anything that's harmful to only you.

Awesome - but what happens if someone else does something harmful to me?

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 03-09-2018 10:59 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 03-09-2018 12:27 PM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 67 of 354 (829558)
03-09-2018 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by ringo
03-09-2018 11:09 AM


Re: How is circumcision harmful?
Two of my brothers were circumcised at birth and two of us were not. I'm not even sure how I know that because I have never once heard either of them mention it.

Thanks for sharing?

I have no idea what the state of my three brothers' penises are so I can't share back - two of them were born in the UK so probably they are intact though one moved to the US so maybe he had it cut since. The third was born in the US so its anybody's guess and I don't feel like asking.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 03-09-2018 11:09 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 03-09-2018 12:29 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 68 of 354 (829562)
03-09-2018 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Modulous
03-09-2018 12:08 PM


Modulous writes:

Sounds like you do want people telling you that things can be harmful to you. Make up your mind!


I want health-care professionals telling me that thalidomide, alcohol and marijuana are bad for me. I don't want politicians jailing me for using them.

Modulous writes:

ringo writes:

... is criminalizing the users an appropriate response?


Yes it is. Babies should not be fed marijuana, it would be abusive.

I think it should be up to the parents, like it is for circumcision. To prove that it "is" harmful, you'd have to prove that it did harm.

Modulous writes:

... what happens if someone else does something harmful to me?


As I've said, that's an entirely different situation. I have no problem with the government telling others not to harm me and telling me not to harm others. What I'm against is the government telling me not to harm myself.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Modulous, posted 03-09-2018 12:08 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Modulous, posted 03-09-2018 1:13 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 69 of 354 (829563)
03-09-2018 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Modulous
03-09-2018 12:10 PM


Re: How is circumcision harmful?
Modulous writes:

I have no idea what the state of my three brothers' penises are so I can't share back....


You make my point. There doesn't seem to be a problem.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Modulous, posted 03-09-2018 12:10 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 70 of 354 (829565)
03-09-2018 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
03-09-2018 12:27 PM


I want health-care professionals telling me that thalidomide, alcohol and marijuana are bad for me. I don't want politicians jailing me for using them.

And giving harmful things to non-consenting people? Is that OK?

I think it should be up to the parents, like it is for circumcision. To prove that it "is" harmful, you'd have to prove that it did harm.

So having oral sex with a child is OK to do to as a parent as long as harm is not proved?

As I've said, that's an entirely different situation. I have no problem with the government telling others not to harm me and telling me not to harm others. What I'm against is the government telling me not to harm myself.

I'm pretty sure children aren't circumcising themselves.

You make my point. There doesn't seem to be a problem.

Your point is that brothers don't tend to talk to one another about their penises?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 03-09-2018 12:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 03-10-2018 10:43 AM Modulous has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6082
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 71 of 354 (829566)
03-09-2018 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ringo
03-09-2018 11:05 AM


Ringo writes:

Think it through. Slavery was banned because it was harmful to the slaves. A was banned from owning B because it was harmful to B. What we're talking about here is banning B from doing something that is harmful to B.

I have thought it through and it appears that you think that 7 day old babies slice the end off their own penis.

Maybe you've heard of abortion. When it was banned, backstreet abortionists did it, some of them out of principle, maybe, but some of them for the money. If you ban circumcision, you criminalize mohels and make the business more lucrative for the unscrupulous ones.

Oh sure - some mohels will carry on their work for the few fundamentalists but since when did we defer from trying to prevent a harmful practice because some criminals want to continue the harmful practice?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 03-09-2018 11:05 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 03-10-2018 10:54 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 72 of 354 (829599)
03-10-2018 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Modulous
03-09-2018 1:13 PM


Modulous writes:

And giving harmful things to non-consenting people? Is that OK?


Nobody should force harmful things on non-consenting people - and nobody should prevent consenting people from doing harmful things if they so choose.

Modulous writes:

So having oral sex with a child is OK to do to as a parent as long as harm is not proved?


It has been shown that such things are harmful.

Modulous writes:

I'm pretty sure children aren't circumcising themselves.


Children can not consent to sexual activity, education, medical procedures, etc.

Modulous writes:

Your point is that brothers don't tend to talk to one another about their penises?


My point is that if nobody talks about a problem, it's hard to establish that there is a problem.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Modulous, posted 03-09-2018 1:13 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Modulous, posted 03-10-2018 1:04 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 73 of 354 (829601)
03-10-2018 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Tangle
03-09-2018 1:50 PM


Tangle writes:

I have thought it through and it appears that you think that 7 day old babies slice the end off their own penis.


If you had thought it through, you wouldn't make such a statement. Seven-day-old babies do not have the capacity to give consent.

Tangle writes:

Oh sure - some mohels will carry on their work for the few fundamentalists but since when did we defer from trying to prevent a harmful practice because some criminals want to continue the harmful practice?


Maybe you haven't heard of abortion? We deferred from trying to prevent that practice - which some people do deem harmful - partly because criminals were continuing the practice in a way that was more harmful. Eliminating the ban on abortion made abortions safe.

Another example would be marijuana. Some US jurisdictions have legalized its use and the Canadian government is about to do the same. In Canada, the express purpose is to keep the profits out of criminal hands and to reduce harm to children.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 03-09-2018 1:50 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 03-10-2018 11:09 AM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6082
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 74 of 354 (829603)
03-10-2018 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
03-10-2018 10:54 AM


Ringo writes:

If you had thought it through, you wouldn't make such a statement. Seven-day-old babies do not have the capacity to give consent.

They don't need consent, according to you they're doing it to themselves.

Maybe you haven't heard of abortion? We deferred from trying to prevent that practice - which some people do deem harmful - partly because criminals were continuing the practice in a way that was more harmful. Eliminating the ban on abortion made abortions safe.

What nonsense. We allowed surgical abortion because it as deemed by society that women should have the right to it.

Another example would be marijuana. Some US jurisdictions have legalized its use and the Canadian government is about to do the same. In Canada, the express purpose is to keep the profits out of criminal hands and to reduce harm to children.

And so....? We have laws which we change when we know more about harm and benefit. Circumcision is one of those things that is causing unnecessary harm to children who have no choice as to whether they have their dicks cut for a religion they know nothing about.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 03-10-2018 10:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 03-10-2018 11:19 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 75 of 354 (829605)
03-10-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tangle
03-10-2018 11:09 AM


Tangle writes:

They don't need consent, according to you they're doing it to themselves.


Really, think it through. A child can not consent to a medical procedure. A parent must consent to any medical procedure performed on his/her child.

Tangle writes:

We allowed surgical abortion because it as deemed by society that women should have the right to it.


It was deemed by society that women should have the right to choose, to give consent. That's what I'm saying. A person should have control over his/her own body. No law should prevent a person from treating his/her body as he/she chooses. And if the person is under age - i.e. incapable of making an informed choice - then the choice is made by the parent or guardian.

Tangle writes:

We have laws which we change when we know more about harm and benefit. Circumcision is one of those things that is causing unnecessary harm to children....


According to you it is causing unnecessary harm. Few legal jurisdictions agree with you.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 03-10-2018 11:09 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Tangle, posted 03-10-2018 3:10 PM ringo has responded

  
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