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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10620
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 16 of 60 (831858)
04-25-2018 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Percy
04-07-2018 5:55 PM


Re: Oh, Gee, It's Happened Again, What a Surprise
I disagree. Police don't commit more crimes because of the same social pressures that cause criminals to do so. Being hungry or addicted may prompt robberies, thefts, etc., but those things are not why police shoot people. If you want to argue that police were in fewer life and death situations, and made fewer bad decisions, I might buy that. But I don't buy an explanation that police pressures to shoot are the same as the pressures on the criminals. That's seems to me intuitively wrong.

[1] I originally had "clearly" here, but I changed the wording because "clearly" is a meaningless and argumentative thing to say. But I do mean to convey here that the explanation being given seems highly unlikely to me.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Percy, posted 04-07-2018 5:55 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 3168
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 17 of 60 (831862)
04-25-2018 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
04-24-2018 6:19 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
I think it's amazing that the officer didn't shoot this guy during the arrest. I've heard that the dude was yelling about having a gun and apparently pulled out his phone/fingers from his pocket acting like they were guns! And the cop still kept his cool.

My guess is the cop knew/highly-suspected that he didn't have a gun before any of the dude's threats began. And then the officer didn't fall for the bluff.
Don't want to play poker against that cop...

However, although this situation was an amazing feat of control for the police officer, Canada/Ontario/Toronto still certainly has it's issues with police gun control:
Sammy Yatim

I do agree, though, that it's certainly "lesser" in Canada.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 04-24-2018 6:19 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 18 of 60 (831874)
04-25-2018 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Stile
04-25-2018 2:04 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Stile writes:

quote:
I think it's amazing that the officer didn't shoot this guy during the arrest. I've heard that the dude was yelling about having a gun and apparently pulled out his phone/fingers from his pocket acting like they were guns! And the cop still kept his cool.

My guess is the cop knew/highly-suspected that he didn't have a gun before any of the dude's threats began. And then the officer didn't fall for the bluff.


And what part of "the guy was white" played into your analysis?

Let's not pretend that Canada has defeated racism. In November of last year, the city of Toronto was the subject of an investigation into racial profiling by police.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Stile, posted 04-25-2018 2:04 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Stile, posted 04-26-2018 9:46 AM Rrhain has responded
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Stile
Member
Posts: 3168
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 19 of 60 (831877)
04-26-2018 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
04-25-2018 8:04 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Rrhain writes:

And what part of "the guy was white" played into your analysis?

Enough to know it could be a significant factor, and also that it might not.

Let's not pretend that Canada has defeated racism.

I agree we shouldn't do that.
It's quite easy to praise a cop in doing a good job (an amazing feat of restraint!) without pretending that Canada has defeated racism.
I think you have an issue with taking things to extremes in order to push a provocative agenda.

In November of last year, the city of Toronto was the subject of an investigation into racial profiling by police.

Good.
I hope they continue such endeavors. Canada most certainly has not defeated racism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 04-25-2018 8:04 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10775
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 20 of 60 (831878)
04-26-2018 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rrhain
04-25-2018 8:04 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Rrhain writes:

And what part of "the guy was white" played into your analysis?

Let's not pretend that Canada has defeated racism.

And I don't believe that humans ever will fully defeat our prejudices and preconceived profilings. We will simply get better than we used to be, hopefully.

Stile is right---you always like to push activist causes. Are you one of them radicals?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Rrhain, posted 04-25-2018 8:04 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 21 of 60 (831899)
04-26-2018 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Stile
04-26-2018 9:46 AM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Stile responds to me:

quote:
It's quite easy to praise a cop in doing a good job (an amazing feat of restraint!) without pretending that Canada has defeated racism.

And apparently it's quite easy to pretend that this "restraint" had nothing to do with the race of the suspect. The very reason you provide for why the cop didn't shoot is exactly what causes them to shoot at black people. Don't you find it interesting that a suspect that is actively threatening the cops, making it seem like he has a weapon, doesn't get shot at while another suspect who is actively submissive and showing that he does not have a weapon gets shot under the claim of, "I thought he had a gun"? That a cop demands a suspect to show ID and when said suspect reaches for his wallet to get it, the cops shoot him claiming, "I thought he had a gun"?

It's precious how you think this is an example of "taking things to extremes." It is hardly "provocative" to note that once again, we see white people being treated better than black people.

Note, this is not a condemnation of the officer for managing to handle the situation without shooting someone. It does mean that since we know it can be done, we need to start wondering why such things can't be done more often. We need to start holding all of our police interactions up to this standard.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Stile, posted 04-26-2018 9:46 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 04-26-2018 8:38 PM Rrhain has responded
 Message 23 by Stile, posted 04-27-2018 9:44 AM Rrhain has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7745
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 22 of 60 (831901)
04-26-2018 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Rrhain
04-26-2018 8:02 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
The very reason you provide for why the cop didn't shoot is exactly what causes them to shoot at black people.

I'm not aware that Canadian law enforcement has a shooting black people problem.

It seems to me that there is more a culture of 'shoot only when it is needed' rather than 'shoot just in case' in Canada compared with the US. Thus, even if officers are equally racist, less shootings of black people occur. That is to say - even if Canadian police officers think, subconsicously or otherwise, that black people are more dangerous - their threshold to shoot is considerably higher.

In the US it seems the journey from non-lethal to lethal force is much shorter, and thus the racial prejudice variables has a bigger impact.

It's precious how you think this is an example of "taking things to extremes." It is hardly "provocative" to note that once again, we see white people being treated better than black people.

I mean - do we have a sufficient amount of cases in Canada to draw the conclusion that white people have significantly more leeway than black people when it comes to interactions with law enforcement?

Note, this is not a condemnation of the officer for managing to handle the situation without shooting someone. It does mean that since we know it can be done, we need to start wondering why such things can't be done more often. We need to start holding all of our police interactions up to this standard.

Yep. In the UK the police managed to shoot only a small number of people to death in 2017:

Yassar Yaqub (a handgun was found and he had run ins with the law for violent crime in the past, but the incident is still being investigated)

Khalid Masood (drove a vehicle into pedestrians and then started stabbing people)

Spencer Ashworth (after reports of threatening people with a handgun he was shot, he was in possession of a handgun - the inquest is ongoing)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Rrhain, posted 04-26-2018 8:02 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Rrhain, posted 04-27-2018 6:37 PM Modulous has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3168
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 23 of 60 (831906)
04-27-2018 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Rrhain
04-26-2018 8:02 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Rrhain writes:

Don't you find it interesting that a suspect that is actively threatening the cops, making it seem like he has a weapon, doesn't get shot at while another suspect who is actively submissive and showing that he does not have a weapon gets shot under the claim of, "I thought he had a gun"? That a cop demands a suspect to show ID and when said suspect reaches for his wallet to get it, the cops shoot him claiming, "I thought he had a gun"?

How many times do I have to agree with you before you move on with your argument?

I agree with you that, in general, there is a horrible problem where sometimes cops treat black people worse than white people in Canada.
My comment was that this trend is "lesser" in Canada than it is in the US.
That is, not that this doesn't happen in Canada, but that it happens less than it does in the US.

Your argument doesn't do anything to suggest otherwise.

I think it's possible that this cop is racist and part of the general problem and didn't shoot because the guy was white and would have killed him if he was black.
I think it's possible that this cop is not racist not part of the general problem and didn't shoot because he showed amazing restraint and also wouldn't have shot if the criminal was black.

Your argument doesn't do anything to suggest otherwise.

All you keep doing is waving a bunch of hands in the air about a general topic that I agree with you about in the general sense anyway.

Do you have anything more to add?

Note, this is not a condemnation of the officer for managing to handle the situation without shooting someone. It does mean that since we know it can be done, we need to start wondering why such things can't be done more often. We need to start holding all of our police interactions up to this standard.

I absolutely agree with you, again.

Now. Do you have another step with your argument or are you done flailing about wildly on things I already agree with that have no impact on anything I've previously said?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Rrhain, posted 04-26-2018 8:02 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 24 of 60 (831934)
04-27-2018 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Modulous
04-26-2018 8:38 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Modulous responds to me:

quote:
quote:
The very reason you provide for why the cop didn't shoot is exactly what causes them to shoot at black people.

I'm not aware that Canadian law enforcement has a shooting black people problem.

How many times do you need to be burned for not reading the thread before posting before you learn the lesson?

Toronto is currently under investigation regarding the treatment of black people by the police. I mentioned this in my first comment on this topic. It is only three posts before the one you responded to.

You didn't really think Canada solved racism, did you?

quote:
I mean - do we have a sufficient amount of cases in Canada to draw the conclusion that white people have significantly more leeway than black people when it comes to interactions with law enforcement?

The city of Toronto, the very city that this incident happened in, is currently under investigation by the Ontario Human Rights Commission for just this thing.

What do you think?

Officers shot at Andrew Loku in 'fear of black man with a hammer,' family's lawyer says (Note, no charges were laid against the officer despite the fact that the coroner's inquest determined the death to be a homicide and that systemic racism was involved. Sound familiar?)

In deadly encounters with Toronto police, more than a third of victims are black

Police shootings of unarmed black men are a Canadian problem too, says author

That said, Canada does have a bit more progress with regard to holding police accountable...meaning they sometimes actually do so:

James Forcillo Sentence: Toronto Police Officer Receives 6-Year Term For Shooting Sammy Yatim

Of course, this raises the question as to why Yatim was shot...maybe because he wasn't white?

Did you do any homework regarding this before jumping in?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 04-26-2018 8:38 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Modulous, posted 04-28-2018 1:38 PM Rrhain has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17178
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 25 of 60 (831935)
04-27-2018 6:49 PM


Desmond Marrow is Lucky He Wasn't Shot
In a confrontation with two white males Desmond Marrow, a black former football player at the University of Toledo with short stints in the NFL and CFL, was wrestled to the ground by responding police officers who had been told he had a gun, which turned out to be a cell phone in his back pocket. He was handcuffed, then slammed into the back of an SUV and wrestled to the ground where he was choked and complained he couldn't breath. He claims he never resisted. There's a graphic video where he is never shown resisting, but the full incident isn't captured. This YouTube version repeats the incident three times for some reason:

Said Marrow's attorney, “We are working to determine why the (officers) resorted to this level of violence with a man who was already handcuffed and complying with orders. We are also investigating why the (officers) lied and included false information on their report.”

Marrow claims he was the victim of a hate crime, but he was charged with making terroristic threats and obstruction, both felonies, and reckless driving and aggressive driving, both misdemeanors. The terroristic threats charge was later dropped, and the rest of the case is with the DA who will decide whether to present the case to a grand jury.

The best account of what happened from the police point of view comes from Video shows Georgia police slamming ex-NFL player to the ground:

quote:
There is no video that shows what led up to the arrests and no video that shows what happened afterwards.

But according to a redacted police report dated Dec. 2, 2017, prior to the arrest Marrow was driving on Jonesboro Road over I-75 when someone in another car threw a cup of coffee at his car. That's when Marrow reportedly started chasing after the car to a nearby shopping center.

An officer happened to witness Marrow driving aggressively and followed the car.

According to the police report, when the officer got there, Marrow and "several others" were in the parking lot. The officer asked if anyone had thrown any punches, and was told no. Police say Marrow was agitated and using profanity. And according to the report "a witness came to the area and said that he had heard Marrow say to another party in the dispute that he would shoot them."

Officers asked Marrow if he had a gun, and he told them no. They patted him down and found no weapon, but because of the alleged threats against others' lives, officers told Marrow they were going to arrest him. At that point, officers said Marrow refused to cooperate, and the struggle between he and the officers began.


Why do I believe the attorney's account that the officer's lied? Because of all the times officers have been caught lying when they attempt to justify their unjustifiable actions by making up just the kind of stuff they know would justify the actions they took. And they're not even able to be original. It's always, "He resisted, witnesses (always white witnesses when the perp is black) said he made threats, we thought he had a gun." Can't they ever think of something new?

One of the officers has been put on administrative leave, so obviously the department realizes something ain't right.

I do believe that Mr Marrow is guilty of losing his temper when the white men verbally taunted him and threw hot coffee in his car, and that he is guilty of following the white men to a white shopping mall.

Here's another account: Video shows former NFL player's violent arrest after he said police mistook a phone for a gun

--Percy


    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 26 of 60 (831936)
04-27-2018 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Stile
04-27-2018 9:44 AM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
Stile responds to me:

quote:
My comment was that this trend is "lesser" in Canada than it is in the US.

Except it isn't. In the US, 31% of people killed by the police are black. Of those killed by police who were not attacking, 39% were.

It's the same in Canada. Of the 52 people killed by the Toronto cops between 2000 and 2017, 19 were black. That's 36.5% despite Toronto's black population being only 8.3%.

Didn't you do any homework regarding this before joining? This makes twice in short succession that your lack of preparedness has bitten you in the ass, causing you to lash out and project your failure onto others, flailing wildly on things you are in no position to provide a rational comment on. You keep waving a bunch of hands in the air, trying to avoid any discussion of race.

OK...so you agree. Then are you going to respond to this?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Stile, posted 04-27-2018 9:44 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by ProtoTypical, posted 04-28-2018 7:13 AM Rrhain has responded
 Message 34 by Stile, posted 05-01-2018 11:44 AM Rrhain has responded

    
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1766
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 27 of 60 (831965)
04-28-2018 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Rrhain
04-27-2018 6:58 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
It's the same in Canada. Of the 52 people killed by the Toronto cops between 2000 and 2017, 19 were black. That's 36.5% despite Toronto's black population being only 8.3%.

Without checking, I would assume that almost all of them were male. Are the Toronto police also sexist or is the threat from males actually greater than it is from females despite being only half the population? Apparently you think that every black man who gets shot by the police is an example of racism and every white person who doesn't is an example of privilege.

Excessive use of force by the police is a problem regardless of who the force is directed at.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Rrhain, posted 04-27-2018 6:58 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 04-28-2018 11:59 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply
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Percy
Member
Posts: 17178
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 28 of 60 (831966)
04-28-2018 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by NoNukes
04-25-2018 10:23 AM


Re: Oh, Gee, It's Happened Again, What a Surprise
NoNukes writes:

I disagree.

No you don't. Let me explain.

Police don't commit more crimes because of the same social pressures that cause criminals to do so. Being hungry or addicted may prompt robberies, thefts, etc., but those things are not why police shoot people.

I agree with this, but I was actually saying something different. When I said that police "are subject to the same social/environmental forces as the city as a whole" I didn't mean they experienced those forces in the same way. I meant it in the way described by the sentence that followed: "Certainly a major factor for the decline in police shootings must be that the general decline in shootings and of crime in general means that the police must less often find themselves facing situations where lethal force must be considered." So when you say:

If you want to argue that police were in fewer life and death situations, and made fewer bad decisions, I might buy that.

Yes, that's basically what I said.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NoNukes, posted 04-25-2018 10:23 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14595
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 29 of 60 (831987)
04-28-2018 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ProtoTypical
04-28-2018 7:13 AM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
ProtoTypical writes:

Apparently you think that every black man who gets shot by the police is an example of racism and every white person who doesn't is an example of privilege.


Not "every" one - just a disproportionate number.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ProtoTypical, posted 04-28-2018 7:13 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7745
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 30 of 60 (831994)
04-28-2018 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Rrhain
04-27-2018 6:37 PM


Re: A Thought on the Toronto Van Rampage
How many times do you need to be burned for not reading the thread before posting before you learn the lesson?

I'm not aware of any cases where that's happened.

Toronto is currently under investigation regarding the treatment of black people by the police. I mentioned this in my first comment on this topic. It is only three posts before the one you responded to.

Yes, you did. I read that. I was keeping it in mind when I read the post. Oh damn, I need the burn unit, I got so burned brah.

You didn't really think Canada solved racism, did you?

Obviously not - which is why I didn't say they had. Which is why my post was focussed on reasons there doesn't seem to be as big of a 'shooting black people problem.' that might not be related to racism. Did you read my post? I explicitly state 'even if officers are equally racist, less shootings of black people occur.' and that police training/protocol may be in the US 'the racial prejudice variables has a bigger impact.'

For someone so keen on berating someone for not reading the thread, you should try to read the posts you are replying to more carefully.

The city of Toronto, the very city that this incident happened in, is currently under investigation by the Ontario Human Rights Commission for just this thing.

What do you think?

I think there's a difference between investigating whether or not there is racial profiling/discrimination and shooting enough black people to draw a conclusion that Canadian law enforcement has a shooting black people problem.

Officers shot at Andrew Loku in 'fear of black man with a hammer,' family's lawyer says (Note, no charges were laid against the officer despite the fact that the coroner's inquest determined the death to be a homicide and that systemic racism was involved. Sound familiar?)

As the sub-heading says:

quote:
Jonathan Shime among a chorus of lawyers calling for race-based data on incidents involving use of force

Which is something I learned during my homework before posting. Thus my questioning whether we have the data to draw the conclusion you were drawing. Further in the article it says:

quote:
if only they had let good sense and training guide them instead of panic, if only they had followed a multitude of recommendations made by previous inquests, then Andrew would be alive today

Which supports my previous statement regarding the difference in protocol between the US and Canada which may have an impact. In the US, officers are rarely prosecuted on the grounds they are behaving as they are trained.

quote:
Const. Andrew Doyle said he fired twice when Loku started walking towards him and his partner with the hammer raised.

Ontario's police watchdog previously found that the officer who shot Loku did not exceed the range of justifiable force.


So the question is - how many white people approach police with a hand to hand weapon primed for attack get shot vs how many black people.

In deadly encounters with Toronto police, more than a third of victims are black

quote:
New data shows 18 black men and one black boy were among the 52 people killed in encounters with Toronto police officers between 2000-2017.

So about 3 people a year. According to the article 2/3 where shot. So about 2 people per year are shot. Less than 1 per million people. If Toronto where in the US it would have the lowest police death by shooting rates in the country....by far.

quote:
In Toronto, the 19 black people killed in encounters with Toronto police account for 36.5 per cent of the fatalities, despite the fact that black people make up just 8.3 per cent of the city's population during this time, according to the data.

The question is - how much of this is a reflection of the social conditions black people are in that is not caused by police? That is - what happens if we correct for income/education etc?

Although the proportions are a problem and we should try to fix them - I'm not sure 0.6 black people being shot per year in Toronto constitute the level of problem that should cause us to speculate that when a white person doesn't get shot that race was the principle factor rather than protocols and training.

quote:
Reports show 14 of the victims were unarmed.

So 14 / 52. So how does that breakdown by race? That might be interesting.

If they are proportional to the overall figures we'd expect about 5 unarmed black people being shot. Over 17 years. Would Duane Christian be one of them? Since he wasn't armed - but he was driving a vehicle at the police.

Police shootings of unarmed black men are a Canadian problem too, says author

"Some guy says so" is not convincing, and that article doesn't give any data to work with.

James Forcillo Sentence: Toronto Police Officer Receives 6-Year Term For Shooting Sammy Yatim

Of course, this raises the question as to why Yatim was shot...maybe because he wasn't white?

The court that examined the evidence said that he was shot because he recovered his weapon. Either way, we certainly can't draw the conclusion of a systemic racially motivated police shooting problem based on a single case.

Did you do any homework regarding this before jumping in?

Yes. Which is why I pointed out that the number of cases to examine is probably too small to draw the conclusion that the reason any given individual doesn't get shot is primarily due to race and that the low number of shootings generally suggests that the reason a person didn't get shot is more likely due to a training/protocol issue than race.

Granted - if someone where to get shot, there would be a disproportionate likelihood they were non-white - but not getting shot is much more common in Canada than the US.

We aren't likely to eradicate racial prejudice - but the US can reduce the number of dead black people by adjusting its training and protocol to match Canadas more closely. That having restraint being the norm, rather than an exceptional state we should celebrate, will save more black people's lives than doing nothing and just waiting for racism to disappear.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Rrhain, posted 04-27-2018 6:37 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Rrhain, posted 04-30-2018 11:01 PM Modulous has responded

  
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