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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
ringo
Member
Posts: 14920
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 121 of 130 (836860)
07-23-2018 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Hyroglyphx
07-22-2018 11:15 PM


Hyroglyphx writes:

As I said, sometimes it is necessary to take the life of a violent felon in order to save an innocent hostage. Are you really going to argue that point?


If I was going to argue that point, I would argue that point. My point is that we can't extrapolate that point.

Hyroglyphx writes:

That was your central point! You made the suggestion that the police are so quick to be heavy-handed in light of numerous instances that we ought to disarm them.


Hmm... that doesn't sound like any central point that I would make. Maybe you can quote where I said any such thing. The central point that I thought I was trying to make was that cops shouldn't get a free pass just because their jobs are "dangerous".

I don't know if I have ever advocated disarming cops. Maybe you can refresh my short memory on that. I did mention that many cops manage to do their jobs without shooting people.

Hyroglyphx writes:

If the real issue is shitty cops then whether they're armed or not seems like a secondary issue to the real problem, no?


Well, I seem to recall saying that shitty cops are more likely to make fatal mistakes with guns than without guns.

Hyroglyphx writes:

In any case, if a standing army was making incorrect force decisions in combat, would your solution be to disarm the military or would your solution be to increase training and increase punitive measures against those who violate the rules of engagement?


Point of information: I come from a Mennonite background. In case you're not aware, Mennonites are pacifists. I'm not a good Mennonite by any means, but I am in favour of disarming the military whether they make incorrect decisions or not. That is, however, a separate issue from the police.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-22-2018 11:15 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17584
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 122 of 130 (838025)
08-12-2018 3:35 PM


Police Murdering Strangers
We all know, or should know, that most people are murdered by people they know. I could look up the statistics, and if someone doubts this then I will, but for now I just want to stay on point and make sure it is clear that most people are not murdered by strangers.

It's important this is clear because I want to relate a statistic I just heard cited by DeRay McKesson of Black Lives Matter while speaking on Face the Nation: one third of people murdered by strangers are murdered by police officers.

This isn't a black or white issue. This is an every person issue. There are around 326 million people in this county. Any one person can only know so many people, maybe a few thousand at the very most, so by definition almost everyone in this country is a stranger. There are only about 1.2 million police officers in this country (full and part time), only 0.37% of the population. So despite police officers being at most only 0.37% of the strangers, they commit 33% of the murders of strangers.

Of course this statistic should be verified, but if DeRay McKesson is correct then police officers commit murders at a rate more than a hundred times greater than their proportion of the population.

As long as I'm posting, and this isn't about a shooting, but here's a video of a Baltimore police office assaulting a man who yelled at him and slapped his hand away. He put up no resistance. The officer has been suspended pending an investigation:

If there wasn't a video do you think the beaten man's complaint would have gone anywhere? It's the same with shootings. Anyone who believes it's just a coincidence that the only time police misbehave is when there's someone recording a video with a cell phone is living in a dream world. The evidence is telling us in stark terms that our police place as at greater rather than lesser risk too often to be tolerated.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by caffeine, posted 08-13-2018 12:46 PM Percy has responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1456
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 123 of 130 (838064)
08-13-2018 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Percy
08-12-2018 3:35 PM


Re: Police Murdering Strangers
Of course this statistic should be verified, but if DeRay McKesson is correct then police officers commit murders at a rate more than a hundred times greater than their proportion of the population.

He is not correct, if you're quoting him accurately. The research on which this claim is ultimately based is here. It's an attempt to estimate the total number of people killed by police in the US. This includes justifiable homicides in the course of duty and people killed by accident. The actual claim of the researchers is that the police are responsible for approximately one third of homicides committed by a stranger. They make no claims about the proportions of murders, manslaughters and justifiable homicides.

Edited by Admin, : Fix italic dBCode.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Percy, posted 08-12-2018 3:35 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Percy, posted 08-13-2018 6:07 PM caffeine has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17584
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 124 of 130 (838073)
08-13-2018 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by caffeine
08-13-2018 12:46 PM


Re: Police Murdering Strangers
I couldn't where in that paper (Estimating Undocumented Homicides with Two Lists and List Dependence) it says anything about murder by strangers. It's main focus seems to be unreported police homicides in not just the United States but other countries, too.

The only information I used from DeRay McKesson was that one third of murders by strangers are committed by police. The rest was just me using the population of the country and the number of police to do a simple calculation, and that showed that if DeRay McKesson's claim was true then police officers commit murders at a rate more than a hundred times greater than their proportion of the population.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by caffeine, posted 08-13-2018 12:46 PM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by caffeine, posted 08-14-2018 5:06 AM Percy has responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1456
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 125 of 130 (838112)
08-14-2018 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Percy
08-13-2018 6:07 PM


Re: Police Murdering Strangers
I couldn't where in that paper (Estimating Undocumented Homicides with Two Lists and List Dependence) it says anything about murder by strangers. It's main focus seems to be unreported police homicides in not just the United States but other countries, too.

That paper doesn't say anything about murders by strangers; but that paper is the source of the estimate for how many homicides the police commit in the US on which the subsequent claim is based. Here is a magazine article by one of the authors of the paper describing their research. It's here he points out that..

quote:
(...)the estimate of 1,500 police homicides per year would mean that eight to ten per cent of all American homicide victims are killed by the police. Of all American homicide victims killed by people they donít know, approximately one-third of them are victims of the police.

The only information I used from DeRay McKesson was that one third of murders by strangers are committed by police.

And that's not true, or at least unevidenced, as not all homicides are murder.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Percy, posted 08-13-2018 6:07 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Percy, posted 08-14-2018 10:05 AM caffeine has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17584
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 126 of 130 (838116)
08-14-2018 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by caffeine
08-14-2018 5:06 AM


Re: Police Murdering Strangers
Let me use your quote from POLICE HOMICIDES IN THE UNITED STATES to redo the calculation. Here's the quote:

quote:
(...)the estimate of 1,500 police homicides per year would mean that eight to ten per cent of all American homicide victims are killed by the police. Of all American homicide victims killed by people they donít know, approximately one-third of them are victims of the police.

Taking the lower figure that 8% of murdered Americans are murdered by police so as not to overstate things, since police officers are 0.37% of the population, that means that police commit murders at a rate 21 times greater than their proportion of the population.

But 8%-10% of all homicides is not the same thing as the percentage of murders by strangers. Most people are murdered by people they know. We need the figure for what percent of people are murdered by people they don't know. The FBI webpage 2014 Crime in the United States tells us that that figure is 11%.

If we use the 8% figure from the webpage you found this actually creates a figure much worse for the police. Most people probably only know a few policemen at most, so the odds are tiny of being murdered by a policeman you know. The vast majority of those murdered by police must be murdered by police they don't know. So if police commit 8% of murders (almost all strangers), and if 11% of murders are of strangers, then police commit 72% of murders of strangers, not 33% as DeRay McKesson claims. I suspect your 8%-10% figure of murders being committed by police is too high. Either that or police are committing a great many murders of people they know, but I think that's very unlikely. Or maybe there's some other explanation, I don't know, I won't look into it unless that becomes the focus.

So where does DeRay McKesson's figure of 33% come from? It's explained in the article The Government Wonít Track Police Killings, So This 24-Year-Old Took the Lead. Sam Sinyangwe, a data scientist and activist, wondered if the available statistics about police violence could be trusted. Working with fellow activists DeRay McKesson and Johnetta Elzie they developed the Mapping Police Violence website. The 33% figure comes out of data they gathered.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by caffeine, posted 08-14-2018 5:06 AM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by caffeine, posted 08-15-2018 2:53 PM Percy has responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1456
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.0


(3)
Message 127 of 130 (838192)
08-15-2018 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Percy
08-14-2018 10:05 AM


Re: Police Murdering Strangers
Taking the lower figure that 8% of murdered Americans are murdered by police

It's not a lower figure - it's the same estimate. About 75% killed by someone they know; about 8% killed by police. 8% is approximately a third of the 25% killed by strangers (it ignores the negligible overlap, since the estimate of people killed by police is looking at killings 'on the job' - not cases where a policeman kills his wife at home).

You're missing the part I was questioning. I'm not arguing about the number. I'm saying it's not a count of people murdered by police. It's a count of homicides committed by police. The police could commit thousands of homicides without murdering anyone. Homicide is not the same thing as murder. Murder is one type of homicide.

We need different data to know how many police homicides are murders.

So where does DeRay McKesson's figure of 33% come from? It's explained in the article The Government Wonít Track Police Killings, So This 24-Year-Old Took the Lead. Sam Sinyangwe, a data scientist and activist, wondered if the available statistics about police violence could be trusted. Working with fellow activists DeRay McKesson and Johnetta Elzie they developed the Mapping Police Violence website. The 33% figure comes out of data they gathered.

I don't see this mentioned in the article you linked or on the Mapping Police VIolence website. I think it's more likely to come from the source I already showed you that does explicitly mention the 'one third' estimate, and is the ultimate source cited anywhere I found the claim that bothered to cite a source.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Percy, posted 08-14-2018 10:05 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 9:35 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply
 Message 129 by Percy, posted 08-16-2018 4:56 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17584
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 128 of 130 (838204)
08-15-2018 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by caffeine
08-15-2018 2:53 PM


Re: Police Murdering Strangers
I'm headed for bed and will figure this out tomorrow, but a quick glance makes we wonder if there isn't a possible misunderstanding:

Taking the lower figure that 8% of murdered Americans are murdered by police

It's not a lower figure - it's the same estimate.

Your quote said "eight to ten per cent". I was only saying that I did my recalculation based on the lower figure of 8%.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by caffeine, posted 08-15-2018 2:53 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17584
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 129 of 130 (838239)
08-16-2018 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by caffeine
08-15-2018 2:53 PM


Re: Police Murdering Strangers
Read your post, I get it now. You've been differentiating between justifiable and unjustifiable homicides and I just wasn't picking up on it. Sorry about that. From what gets reported in the news it seems like the vast majority of police homicides get classified as justified, so the number of people murdered by police must be small.

Yet most times when a video turns up it turns out it wasn't justifiable or that at least there's doubt, so I just don't believe the police. I don't think DeRay McKesson believes the police, either, so he used the term murder instead of homicide.

But there's no proof of that, so let me restate my conclusion using the term "homicide": Police officers commit homicides at a rate more than a hundred times greater than their proportion of the population.

Let me apologize again. You were clear enough from the beginning, I don't know how I missed it.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by caffeine, posted 08-15-2018 2:53 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17584
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 130 of 130 (838263)
08-17-2018 10:36 AM


A Different Kind of Shooting
The headline says it all: Police use Taser on 87-year-old woman cutting dandelions with a knife.

Martha Al-Bsihara's daughter-in-law says she has dementia and only speaks Arabic. She was across the street from her home. After the tasing officers helped her up, arrested her, placed in in handcuffs, and took her down to the station house for booking. Her court appearance is scheduled for September 19th.

The officers said the tasing was justified because she failed to follow repeated instructions to drop the knife, including pantomimes of dropping a knife, and continued advancing toward officers - there were four. PERF (Police Executive Research Forum) suggests that jurisdictions prohibit taser use on the elderly.

I know what 87 and dementia looks like - there was no excuse for tasing this elderly woman. This taser use was criminal and I hope the family files charges.

--Percy


    
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