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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
jar
Member
Posts: 30708
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 166 of 877 (832868)
05-13-2018 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by jar
05-07-2018 7:30 AM


Trying to fix never worked so here is the corrected version.
Phat writes:

Once people begin to face the pains of the future and see the reality of China crushing the US role as global superpower, I predict that at least in the US, Christianity will see a huge upsurge, and the public will again turn to the church to help them get what government will no longer be able to provide.

But what does the evidence show?

England lost it's Empire and world dominating Navy and faced debt far greater as a percentage of production than the US debt. Did the people turn to the church to get what government no longer provided and did the church meet those needs?

France and Germany and Belgium and Italy and Spain and Poland and Greece and Russia and ... lost everything, homes, factories, generations, governments. Did the people turn to the church to get what government no longer provided and did the church meet those needs?

US News Best Quality of Life by Country 2018

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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 Message 119 by jar, posted 05-07-2018 7:30 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29170
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 167 of 877 (832869)
05-13-2018 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Tangle
05-13-2018 8:15 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
GDR says public stonings are evil, therefore God did not advocate them.*

GDR complains that the death penalty is executed out of public sight.

I suggested that perhaps we should bring back public stonings.

*I rewrote this because I'd first said GDR said God is evil for advocating public stonings, but he didn't, he simply said the Bible writers were lying because God wouldn't do that.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Tangle, posted 05-13-2018 8:15 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 05-13-2018 9:21 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 173 by Phat, posted 05-13-2018 10:12 AM Faith has responded
 Message 174 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 10:29 AM Faith has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10970
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 168 of 877 (832871)
05-13-2018 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
05-13-2018 9:09 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I thought that your comment was deadpan humor (or an attempt at such). I didnt think you were serious.

What right do humans have to enact Gods laws anyway?(assuming they actually were Gods laws)

Not sure if this is the right topic to discuss this....unless we are studying rational thinking in both a religious context(Bible says it so it must be true) vs a scientific context (what moral justification is there for a given action).


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 9:09 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4476
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 169 of 877 (832872)
05-13-2018 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by PaulK
05-13-2018 4:17 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
GDR writes:

When the Biblical writers use the term "Word of God" it is not referring to the Scriptures. It is referring to the Logos and can be also translated as the "wisdom" of God. In Genesis it metaphorically talks about God speaking the world into existence, (such as in God said let there be light etc. ) and so it is in reference to that. The "Word of God" put another way is the essence, the wisdom and the power of God when used in the Bible.

PaulK writes:

Or it might refer to the words attributed to God in the Bible. While the Bible never claims divine authorship it does have sections that are claim to be God’s words, as set down by the human writers.


The claim that God spoke to them, is not the same thing as when the term "Word of God" is used as a noun.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2018 4:17 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2018 10:55 AM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4476
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 170 of 877 (832873)
05-13-2018 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Faith
05-13-2018 5:06 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:

Traditional Bible theologians say you're wrong. They agree with that quote I gave that "All scripture is God-breathed." I think I'll go with them.

That statement is wrong on all levels. Firstl your idea of traditional Bible theologians would be those that support your understanding of how the Scriptures should be understood. We can go all the way back to traditional Bible theologians such as Augustine who would disagree with you.

Also "God breathed" is not the same thing as God dictated. I agree that God breathes life into the Scriptures and that God reaches out to us through the Scriptures, but when you read it with your understanding you wind up with a perverted view of the nature of God as well as of His desire of how we should live our lives.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 5:06 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:00 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 05-13-2018 10:06 AM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29170
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 171 of 877 (832874)
05-13-2018 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by GDR
05-13-2018 9:53 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Augusting said something for everybody. Luther got a lot out of Augustine.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 9:53 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10970
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 172 of 877 (832875)
05-13-2018 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by GDR
05-13-2018 9:53 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
GDR writes:

"God breathed" is not the same thing as God dictated. I agree that God breathes life into the Scriptures and that God reaches out to us through the Scriptures, but when you read it with your understanding you wind up with a perverted view of the nature of God as well as of His desire of how we should live our lives.

Which brings us to the debate on how God communicates with humanity, (if in fact He does).

My belief is that Jesus is alive...in the sense that the Creator of all seen and unseen embodied a human character that has never stayed dead. Consequently, we too are capable of actions warranting eternal life if we follow this embodied Spirit (character) rather than our own carnal imaginations. This gets to the heart of the issue between religion and science on one level.

Science has evidence for a brain, a body, and learned behavior.

Religion believes in an eternal Spirit that embodies us through choice and decision.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 9:53 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 4:36 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10970
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 173 of 877 (832876)
05-13-2018 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
05-13-2018 9:09 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:

GDR complains that the death penalty is executed out of public sight.

I suggested that perhaps we should bring back public stonings.

Lets take a group of people who believe that the Bible is one of Gods ways to speak to us.
  • Do they follow their conscience when it disagrees with the strict literal interpretation of the Bible or do they go with the literal interpretation?

  • When you pray for wisdom or inspiration, do you ask for this wisdom to build on what the Bible says or do you ask for an overall understanding of what the book (or God Himself) says to us now...today...in the current context?

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 167 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 9:09 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 175 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
  • GDR
    Member
    Posts: 4476
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 174 of 877 (832878)
    05-13-2018 10:29 AM
    Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
    05-13-2018 9:09 AM


    Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
    Faith writes:

    GDR says God is evil for prescribing public stonings
    GDR complains that the death penalty is executed out of public sight.

    I suggested that perhaps we should bring back public stonings.


    My point is that God as we see His Word, wisdom and nature embodied in Jesus would never have commanded public stonings. It is you that claims that God actually did command public stonings for minor transgressions along with having Him command genocide.

    It is the people that commanded public stoning in the name of God that are evil. It is you that says that God commanded public stonings thus declaring Him evil.

    My complaint against the death penalty is that it requires that some individual kill another human being when there is an alternative available, and how that will harden the heart of the executioner.

    I don't think it should be done at all but I also don't believe that we remain relatively untouched by the horror of an execution as we sit in our comfortable pews seeing justice as having been served, which is not saying that the executions should be done publicly.

    Also, public stoning was not just having the public witness the execution, but it involved the whole community going out and throwing rocks at some individual, (for things like picking up firewood on the sabbath), until they have painfully breathed their last.

    You believe that God commanded that to happen and yet you have the audacity to say that it is me who calls God evil.


    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 167 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 9:09 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 176 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:44 AM GDR has responded

        
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 29170
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 175 of 877 (832879)
    05-13-2018 10:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 173 by Phat
    05-13-2018 10:12 AM


    Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
    Lets take a group of people who believe that the Bible is one of Gods ways to speak to us.

    Do they follow their conscience when it disagrees with the strict literal interpretation of the Bible or do they go with the literal interpretation?

    When you pray for wisdom or inspiration, do you ask for this wisdom to build on what the Bible says or do you ask for an overall understanding of what the book (or God Himself) says to us now...today...in the current context?

    The Bible is our final authority. Without that we are subject to all kinds of errors and deceptions through our own feelings and judgments or even through demonic influence. Whenever a person "gets a message from God" we know it's not from God if it contradicts scripture. Those who pick and choose from the Bible to decide for themselves what is true in it and what false, are seriously self-deceived.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 173 by Phat, posted 05-13-2018 10:12 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 178 by jar, posted 05-13-2018 11:23 AM Faith has not yet responded
     Message 180 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2018 1:51 PM Faith has responded

        
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 29170
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 176 of 877 (832880)
    05-13-2018 10:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 174 by GDR
    05-13-2018 10:29 AM


    Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
    Picking up firewood on the Sabbath was a horrifically serious sin against God and against the Jewish community and against the promise of the Messiah. Doing any kind of work on the Sabbath, or doing anything like collecting firewood which was necessary for the work of cooking, was a slap in the face of God. The sanctity of the Sabbath as a day of Rest foreshadows the ultimate Rest in Christ promised from Eden. That Rest speaks of total and complete dependence on God rather than ourselves. To call it a minor crime is to misunderstand the most central objective of God's revelation to us.

    Yes of course I understood your culturebound and prissily self-righteous denunciation of public stoning as punishment of lawbreakers as well as your fatuously self-deceived idea of who Jesus Christ is. That only makes my joke more of a joke.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 174 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 10:29 AM GDR has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 179 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 11:28 AM Faith has responded

        
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 14228
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 177 of 877 (832881)
    05-13-2018 10:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 169 by GDR
    05-13-2018 9:25 AM


    Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
    quote:

    The claim that God spoke to them, is not the same thing as when the term "Word of God" is used as a noun.

    If God spoke to them, then what he said would be the word of God. And surely the phrase “every word of God” fits better with that than with the idea of the Logos (itself an idea that postdates the books of the Tanakh)


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 169 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 9:25 AM GDR has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 186 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 4:41 PM PaulK has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30708
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 178 of 877 (832882)
    05-13-2018 11:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
    05-13-2018 10:40 AM


    Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
    Faith writes:

    The Bible is our final authority.

    then why do you constantly deny what the Bible actually says and substitute the dogma of your Cult for what is actually written?


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 175 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:40 AM Faith has not yet responded

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 4476
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.7


    (1)
    Message 179 of 877 (832883)
    05-13-2018 11:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 176 by Faith
    05-13-2018 10:44 AM


    Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
    Faith writes:

    Picking up firewood on the Sabbath was a horrifically serious sin against God and against the Jewish community and against the promise of the Messiah. Doing any kind of work on the Sabbath, or doing anything like collecting firewood which was necessary for the work of cooking, was a slap in the face of God. The sanctity of the Sabbath as a day of Rest foreshadows the ultimate Rest in Christ promised from Eden. That Rest speaks of total and complete dependence on God rather than ourselves. To call it a minor crime is to misunderstand the most central objective of God's revelation to us.
    Yes of course I understood your culturebound and prissily self-righteous denunciation of public stoning as punishment of lawbreakers as well as your fatuously self-deceived idea of who Jesus Christ is. That only makes my joke more of a joke

    Actually the Bible has a warning for those who claimed that God had told them to commit genocide and public stonings, as well as for people who understand the Bible as you do. This is from Isaiah 5:20.

    quote:
    Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 176 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:44 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 181 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 2:52 PM GDR has responded

        
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 14228
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 1.6


    (1)
    Message 180 of 877 (832884)
    05-13-2018 1:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
    05-13-2018 10:40 AM


    Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
    If the Bible is your final authority, why do you quote men who misrepresent it ?

    Message 146

    I note that you haven’t answered this point.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 175 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:40 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 182 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 2:56 PM PaulK has responded

        
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