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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Faith
Member
Posts: 28085
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 181 of 497 (832886)
05-13-2018 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by GDR
05-13-2018 11:28 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
It's very sad to see someone judge the Bible by his own fallible mind, and turn it against God and against people who know what it really means. You turn it against me and you will even turn this against me won't you? I can point to what the Bible says and you will just say it doesn't mean what it says, God didn't advocate stoning lawbreakers, God didn't order the death of a whole lawbreaking people, that's the men who wrote it lying about it. You'll even quote the Bible against me for believing the Bible.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 11:28 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 5:07 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28085
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 182 of 497 (832887)
05-13-2018 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by PaulK
05-13-2018 1:51 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
If the Bible is your final authority, why do you quote men who misrepresent it ?
Message 146
I note that you haven’t answered this point.

What's to answer? I quoted someone who gives the standard traditional understanding. That doesn't matter to you. You like your own interpretations better.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2018 1:51 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2018 3:09 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 184 by jar, posted 05-13-2018 4:23 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13886
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 183 of 497 (832888)
05-13-2018 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Faith
05-13-2018 2:56 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
quote:

What's to answer?

The fact that he misrepresented the Bible of course.

quote:

I quoted someone who gives the standard traditional understanding

So, misrepresenting the Bible is a tradition in “Christianity”. I’m not surprised. But it makes a mockery of your claim that the Bible is the final authority.

quote:

That doesn't matter to you. You like your own interpretations better.

I was raised Christian, so I am still a little shocked that people who claim to be Christians would care so little about the Bible. I would be more shocked if I hadn't seen it over and over again from so-called “Bible-believing Christians”

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 2:56 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30361
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 184 of 497 (832889)
05-13-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Faith
05-13-2018 2:56 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:

I quoted someone who gives the standard traditional understanding.

No, you quoted someone who gives the dogma of your Cult.

The issue is why don't you believe the Bible says what is actually written over what is claimed by a fallen human member of your Cult?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 185 of 497 (832890)
05-13-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Phat
05-13-2018 10:06 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Phat writes:

Which brings us to the debate on how God communicates with humanity, (if in fact He does).

I'd suggest that it is that "still small voice of God", or in Christian terms his Holy Spirit that speaks to our heart mind and conscience through nature, holy books and other people in all aspects of life.

Phat writes:

My belief is that Jesus is alive...in the sense that the Creator of all seen and unseen embodied a human character that has never stayed dead. Consequently, we too are capable of actions warranting eternal life if we follow this embodied Spirit (character) rather than our own carnal imaginations. This gets to the heart of the issue between religion and science on one level.

I think we have to be careful when we talk about our actions that offer us eternal life. Firstly our actions are only a reflection of where are hearts find joy, and our actions don't necessarily reflect out hearts, particularly when you consider that we aren't all blessed with loving parents and peaceful cultures.

I'd also add that when we talk about being saved, it isn't about getting our doctrine right, but about having our hearts set on a trajectory towards having hearts that love unselfishly, and with that given the job of reflecting God's love into His creation.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 186 of 497 (832891)
05-13-2018 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by PaulK
05-13-2018 10:55 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
PaulK writes:

If God spoke to them, then what he said would be the word of God. And surely the phrase “every word of God” fits better with that than with the idea of the Logos (itself an idea that postdates the books of the Tanakh)

But that isn't how the term "the word of God" is used in the context we are talking about. The Word or Logos is much more than just God speaking to someone but it is the "Word", or again wisdom of God that has existed eternally. It is the "Word" that became flesh, (to quote the Gospel of John), in Jesus.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2018 10:55 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2018 5:05 PM GDR has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13886
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 187 of 497 (832892)
05-13-2018 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by GDR
05-13-2018 4:41 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
quote:

But that isn't how the term "the word of God" is used in the context we are talking about.

According to you. It’s up to you to support that claim. I very much doubt that it is true of any verse in the Tanakh.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 4:41 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 5:14 PM PaulK has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 188 of 497 (832893)
05-13-2018 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Faith
05-13-2018 2:52 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:

It's very sad to see someone judge the Bible by his own fallible mind,

..and your mind is infallible?
Faith writes:

and turn it against God and against people who know what it really means.

...and you of course know what it really means.
Faith writes:

I can point to what the Bible says and you will just say it doesn't mean what it says, God didn't advocate stoning lawbreakers, God didn't order the death of a whole lawbreaking people, that's the men who wrote it lying about it.

I can point to the Bible verses and you and you will say that it doesn't really mean what it says. Did Jesus really say that we should give away all that we own. Have you done that? Why aren't you out campaigning for public stoning. Here is a quote from Deuteronomy.
quote:
18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
If one of your kids were to come home drunk have you called on your neighbours to get together and stone him to death? You pick and choose and rationalize as everyone does.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 2:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 6:13 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 189 of 497 (832894)
05-13-2018 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by PaulK
05-13-2018 5:05 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
PaulK writes:

According to you. It’s up to you to support that claim. I very much doubt that it is true of any verse in the Tanakh.


OK. Give me a verse.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2018 5:05 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 12:11 AM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28085
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 190 of 497 (832896)
05-13-2018 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by GDR
05-13-2018 5:07 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I'm not saying my mind is infallible, I'm saying that's why God gave us the Bible, BECAUSE we can't trust ourselves to get it right. I trust the Bible, you trust your own fallible mind.

Yes I do -- in a general sense -- know what it really means, as do evangelicals in general -- because I spent a lot of time, a LOT of time, since becoming a believer, studying theology, Bible exegesis, and listening to preachers galore, mostly traditional but I also read a lot of heretical and cultic and fringey stuff.

I read the Bible according to context and I often consider what lots of preachers and teachers have to say about it before I feel I know what it means. Of course Jesus didn't tell all of us to give away all we own, He told a specific person that and anybody else whose situation it fits, but of course it is a general principle we are to take seriously according to our own situations too..

The stubborn and rebellious son is considered to be an adult, not a child. God also held the priest Eli responsible for the misbehavior of his adult sons.

And while the Old Testament is to be a model for all times it also has to be understood as particularly related to the context of God's chosen people who needed very strict laws to protect them against the influences of the idolatrous nations around them. The death penalty was one form of protection against all kinds of misbehaviors that could cause the people to degenerate -- which is given as the reason for the punishment of the rebellious son. The people degenerated anyway because they didn't obey God's law and did fall into the heathen practices. We live in the Christian era and there is no nation that is God's chosen people so laws are made with different purposes in mind.

The Bible is not directed to the reader, it's meant to be read in context and applied according to relevance.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 5:07 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 6:47 PM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4412
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 191 of 497 (832897)
05-13-2018 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Faith
05-13-2018 6:13 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:

I'm not saying my mind is infallible, I'm saying that's why God gave us the Bible, BECAUSE we can't trust ourselves to get it right. I trust the Bible, you trust your own fallible mind.

It is your fallible judgement that the Bible should be understood the way that you do. It is your fallible judgement that says that the Bible is essentially dictated by God and is inerrant.

Faith writes:

Yes I do know what it really means because I spent a lot of time, a LOT of time, since becoming a believer, studying theology, Bible exegesis, and listening to preachers galore, mostly traditional but I also read a lot of heretical and cultic and fringey stuff.


Do you think that I haven't? I have shelves full of theological books that I have read. I am currently reading a book of over 1600 pages all on Paul. I too have read authors with various view points including those who think like you do.

Faith writes:

We live in the Christian era and there is no nation that is God's chosen people so laws are made with different purposes in mind.

While actually there is a nation of Christ followers. It just isn't defined geographically or culturally.
Faith writes:

Most of the Bible is not directed to the reader, it's meant to be read in context and applied according to relevance.


Then why don't you do that?
You have decided that with the new covenant that some of the OT laws are no longer in force and some are. You pick and choose according to what you believe. There are numerous laws about the sacrifice of animals in the OT but Jesus said that He desires mercy and not sacrifice. He corrects the law that Moses, (not Yahweh) gave on divorce. He corrects the law concerning an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and says instead to turn the other cheek. You pick and choose and rationalize away all that does not fit your understanding of how the Bible is to be understood.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 6:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 6:52 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 193 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 7:09 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 7:38 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28085
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 192 of 497 (832898)
05-13-2018 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by GDR
05-13-2018 6:47 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I obey the Bible and not my own opinion about what laws are still in force and which are not. The New Testament makes all that clear.

And Jesus does NOT "correct" the law of eye for an eye and tooth for tooth, because that law is absolutely perfectly expressed Justice. He is instead teaching us individually and personally to learn not to exact justice but to be merciful and self-sacrificing for the sake of saving others.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 6:47 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28085
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 193 of 497 (832899)
05-13-2018 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by GDR
05-13-2018 6:47 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
You pick and choose according to what you believe.

How would I know what to believe if I hadn't read what I've read? And actually I don't pick and choose according to what I believe, I often understand that things I don't agree with are nevertheless true so I subordinate my own opinion to them. The teachings on women's role for instance.

There are numerous laws about the sacrifice of animals in the OT but Jesus said that He desires mercy and not sacrifice.

Actually it was God in the Old Testament who said that. But Jesus IS the fulfillment of all the animal sacrifices so they are now obsolete. The Letter to the Hebrews is all about that. There are no more animal sacrifices because THE sacfirice they all pointed to has come. That's why God had the temple destroyed, the only place ordained for the performance of the animal sacrifices. The food laws are also obsolete because they were meant to keep the Israelites from contamination by the idolatrous nations. Peter's vision tells us they are now obsolute.

He corrects the law that Moses, (not Yahweh) gave on divorce.

Yes He did correct it. Now it is as strict as God intended it to be and the excuses given by the men of Israel are no longer allowed.

He corrects the law concerning an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and says instead to turn the other cheek.

This applies on the personal level, but the Law of eye for an eye remains perfect Justice to be applied by the State.

You pick and choose and rationalize away all that does not fit your understanding of how the Bible is to be understood.

As I said, the New Testament teaches us what applies now and what doesn't. Jesus fulfilled the Law on the behalf of all individual believers. We are no longer under its condemnation because He fulfilled it for us. But Paul taught that the Law is holy in itself, and Jesus said not one tiny point of punctuation will go unfulfilled because He came to pay it all to save us from eternal punishment. But in this fallen world law is necessary or things would be even worlse than they are, and they are pretty bad these days because we've been abandoning a lot of God's law.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 6:47 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28085
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 194 of 497 (832900)
05-13-2018 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by GDR
05-13-2018 6:47 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Do you think that I haven't? I have shelves full of theological books that I have read. I am currently reading a book of over 1600 pages all on Paul. I too have read authors with various view points including those who think like you do.

OK, I believe you but then it's hard for me to understand HOW you are reading it because you seem to end up judging it all from some ingrained moral feelings of your own and denying the validity of what to my mind are the most believable positions. You seem to judge from your emotions rather than according to what is true. Objectivity is missing. Objectivity is practically defined by the suspension of one's own opinions and feelings and judging according to an external standard.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by GDR, posted 05-13-2018 6:47 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by jar, posted 05-13-2018 8:11 PM Faith has responded
 Message 213 by GDR, posted 05-14-2018 2:17 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30361
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 195 of 497 (832901)
05-13-2018 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Faith
05-13-2018 7:38 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:

Objectivity is practically defined by the suspension of one's own opinions and feelings and judging according to an external standard.

But then why did you choose the dogma of your Cult as your external standard over what is actually written in the Bible stories as well as the reality that there is no such thing as "The Bible™" but only collections of collections of stories chosen by humans?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 7:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 10:26 PM jar has responded

  
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