Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 92 (8856 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-17-2018 4:56 PM
217 online now:
Dr Adequate, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), ringo (4 members, 213 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: rldawnca
Post Volume:
Total: 837,008 Year: 11,831/29,783 Month: 853/1,642 Week: 267/460 Day: 22/44 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1314
15
1617
...
59NextFF
Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Faith
Member
Posts: 29170
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 211 of 877 (832939)
05-14-2018 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by PaulK
05-14-2018 1:50 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
If I’m part of the majority it’s probably because I have truth and reason on my side

Of course, what else could it possibly be?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 1:50 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2018 2:07 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14228
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 212 of 877 (832940)
05-14-2018 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Faith
05-14-2018 2:00 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Your inability to support your claims or answer criticisms of them is rather convincing evidence.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 2:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4476
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 213 of 877 (832941)
05-14-2018 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Faith
05-13-2018 7:38 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:

OK, I believe you but then it's hard for me to understand HOW you are reading it because you seem to end up judging it all from some ingrained moral feelings of your own and denying the validity of what to my mind are the most believable positions. You seem to judge from your emotions rather than according to what is true. Objectivity is missing. Objectivity is practically defined by the suspension of one's own opinions and feelings and judging according to an external standard.


I'm going to try this again but you are so focused on your own understanding that it is difficult for you to accept other points of view as having any possibility of value.

In order to understand the New Testament you need the Old Testament. In order to understand what God has to say in the Old Testament, you need to look at it through the lens of the New Testament, and particularly the teaching of Jesus.

Here is an example of understanding the new from the old. In Acts 1 it tells us that “ He (Jesus) was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight”. Now with our 21st century way of reading this we see him disappearing into an actual cloud. However when we go to the OT we can see stories as in Exodus with God leading the Israelites in a pillar of cloud. Even more clearly we read again in Exodus the following 2 quotes.

quote:
While Aaron was speaking to the whole Israelite community, they looked toward the desert, and there was the glory of the LORD appearing in the cloud.
quote:
The LORD said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said.

So now when we go back to the ascension we can see that it isn’t about Jesus going into a cloud but it is Jesus going into the presence of God.

Now when I want to understand things like the claim that Yahweh had commanded genocide and public stoning I can look at it through the lens Jesus and the NT. We are to understand that people are capable of claiming vile things in the name of God to suit their own purposes. That tells us that we should be wary when people make those claims and keep our eyes focused on the true representative of God which is Jesus and not an inerrant Bible.

The Word or nature that we see in Jesus with the message to love our enemy tells us that Yahweh would never have sanctioned, let alone commanded, either public stoning or genocide. It is clear in the Gospels that Jesus saw the enemy as evil itself and that the weapon against such evil, (in this case the Romans), was love. He told His followers to love them, turn the other cheek and go the extra mile. He commanded His followers to infect, not just their fellow Jews, but the whole world with God’s love by allowing the love that He has for us, to flow through us, into the world.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 7:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 4:51 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29170
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 214 of 877 (832946)
05-14-2018 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by GDR
05-14-2018 2:17 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
It's probably a mistake to enter into debate about the Bible and God at all, but it's hard to avoid here.

In order to understand the New Testament you need the Old Testament. In order to understand what God has to say in the Old Testament, you need to look at it through the lens of the New Testament, and particularly the teaching of Jesus.

Well, I agree with half of that: the New Testament is necessary to understand the Old, but not the other way around. The whole point of the Old Testament was to point to the Messiah Jesus, as Jesus Himself said.

Here is an example of understanding the new from the old. In Acts 1 it tells us that “ He (Jesus) was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight”. Now with our 21st century way of reading this we see him disappearing into an actual cloud. However when we go to the OT we can see stories as in Exodus with God leading the Israelites in a pillar of cloud. Even more clearly we read again in Exodus the following 2 quotes.

While Aaron was speaking to the whole Israelite community, they looked toward the desert, and there was the glory of the LORD appearing in the cloud.

The LORD said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said.

So now when we go back to the ascension we can see that it isn’t about Jesus going into a cloud but it is Jesus going into the presence of God.

I don't see that from what you've quoted. It appears to be a literal cloud in all cases, and even if the OT clouds weren't really clouds, whatever you mean by that, there's no reason I see that the OT should be used to define the cloud Jesus disappeared into. Of course He went to the presence of God but it was a literal cloud He disappeared into. Why not? Even if it was a specially divinely devised cloud it was still a cloud, and when He returns we should expect to see Him coming out of what anyone would describe as an actual cloud. As the angel told the disciples who were standing there with mouths agape after Jesus had been taken up into the cloud, He will come again just as He left.

(However, if you have to have a symbolic "cloud," the usual meaning of cloud is that it represents a very large company of people, as in "a cloud of witnesses" etc.

Now when I want to understand things like the claim that Yahweh had commanded genocide and public stoning I can look at it through the lens Jesus and the NT. We are to understand that people are capable of claiming vile things in the name of God to suit their own purposes. That tells us that we should be wary when people make those claims and keep our eyes focused on the true representative of God which is Jesus and not an inerrant Bible.

Seems to me you need some reason to accuse the writers of that kind of deception and you have none. But beyond that you are simply wrong about Jesus. He IS God, He is the second Person of the one true God, three Persons all with the same mind. And it would be very odd if the omnipotent God couldn't guarantee that His chosen writers would give a true revelation of His nature. That sort of confusion is impossible if God is God.

The Word or nature that we see in Jesus with the message to love our enemy tells us that Yahweh would never have sanctioned, let alone commanded, either public stoning or genocide. It is clear in the Gospels that Jesus saw the enemy as evil itself and that the weapon against such evil, (in this case the Romans), was love. He told His followers to love them, turn the other cheek and go the extra mile. He commanded His followers to infect, not just their fellow Jews, but the whole world with God’s love by allowing the love that He has for us, to flow through us, into the world.

Well, nothing I say is likely to change your mind, but Jesus IS the God who decreed the punishments described in the Old Testament. He clearly identifies Himself many times with God. Same God, same mind. I already pointed out that the Messiah is to come a second time to bring vengeance on God's enemies. However, you are making a very basic mistake. The Old Testament Laws are for a nation, a whole community, a government, but Jesus is talking to His individual disciples. We personally are to love our enemies and all the rest of it. And although Jesus' merciful principles should also be taken to heart by the State, the State has the job of punishing people who are a danger to society. But we as individuals are to give up all motives of revenge "Vengeance is Mine, says the LORD." Not ours, His. The severe punishments described and prescribed in the OT are also to be taken as pictures of eternal punishment for those who will not repent. Mercy is ultimately salvation through Christ's sacrifice and that entails repentance. The unrepentant remain under God's wrath, which is said in the New Testament too. ALL of us, it says, were under God's wrath until saved.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by GDR, posted 05-14-2018 2:17 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by NoNukes, posted 05-15-2018 4:41 AM Faith has responded
 Message 218 by ringo, posted 05-15-2018 11:59 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10866
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 215 of 877 (832947)
05-14-2018 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Faith
05-14-2018 1:13 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Funny, I've said that to you many times, how you are the least logical person here. Is tit for tatting me that satisfying to you?

It does not matter what you say or claim without argument or evidence. You just demonstrated your inability to construct a case other than "X authority said so". Do you actually have an argument or are you going to add this thread to the examples of goofy creationists without a case?

You simply don't have the ability to insult anyone.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 1:13 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10866
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 216 of 877 (832956)
05-15-2018 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
05-14-2018 4:51 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
However, if you have to have a symbolic "cloud," the usual meaning of cloud is that it represents a very large company of people, as in "a cloud of witnesses" etc.

Really? Can you cite a couple of what must be many examples of this word usage?

Or are you just saying whatever?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 4:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 05-15-2018 11:38 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29170
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 217 of 877 (832964)
05-15-2018 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by NoNukes
05-15-2018 4:41 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
NN writes:

Faith writes:

However, if you have to have a symbolic "cloud," the usual {symbolic} meaning of cloud is that it represents a very large company of people, as in "a cloud of witnesses" etc.

Really? Can you cite a couple of what must be many examples of this word usage?

Or are you just saying whatever?

Isa 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?

Eze 38:9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land …

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us...

[Strong's] The KJV translates Strong's G3509 in the following manner: cloud (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng

Read somewhere while looking this up yesterday that both Greek and Latin as well as Hebrew, use "cloud" in this way, but can't find it today so you can accuse me of making that part up.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by NoNukes, posted 05-15-2018 4:41 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by NoNukes, posted 05-15-2018 9:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14912
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 218 of 877 (832965)
05-15-2018 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
05-14-2018 4:51 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Faith writes:

It's probably a mistake to enter into debate about the Bible and God at all....


Yes, it's probably a mistake to enter a foot race when you don't have a leg to stand on.

Faith writes:

... the New Testament is necessary to understand the Old, but not the other way around. The whole point of the Old Testament was to point to the Messiah Jesus, as Jesus Himself said.


You contradict yourself. How would you even know what a Messiah was without the Old Testament?

The New Testament without the Old is like The Return of the King without The Fellowship of the Ring. You'd be asking yourself, "What is this Ring and how did a hobbit even get it?"


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 05-14-2018 4:51 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10866
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 219 of 877 (832996)
05-15-2018 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Faith
05-15-2018 11:38 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
Read somewhere while looking this up yesterday that both Greek and Latin as well as Hebrew, use "cloud" in this way, but can't find it today so you can accuse me of making that part up.

1. No hurry, take your time.
2. Your examples are not even on point. Not sure why you posted them.
3. Your claim was about the "usual meeting". And then what you actually cited included counter-examples where "cloud" was used in a completely different way?

Perhaps my point 1 is wrong. There is no point in citing the reference. You just proved that if, in fact, it says what you claim, that the reference is wrong.

Covering things like a cloud alludes to something like a blanket, which in turn could imply a multitude if it were people doing the covering. But of course, in those other words, like crowd, numbers, or multitude were also used.

So is it cloud, or the other words in the context that actually do the work?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 05-15-2018 11:38 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Aussie
Member
Posts: 178
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 220 of 877 (833017)
05-16-2018 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
04-30-2018 9:44 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
I'm not interested enough in the Judas story to try to figure out the details.

Hi Faith,

I suspect you are being dishonest here; dishonest with yourself as much as with the rest of us here following the conversation. Rather than a general lack of interest in this piece of "God-breathed" Scripture, I think it is much more likely that you have absolutely no idea how to reconcile this bald-faced contradiction in any meaningful way.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 04-30-2018 9:44 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 9:59 AM Aussie has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29170
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 221 of 877 (833026)
05-16-2018 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Aussie
05-16-2018 8:48 AM


Re: Compatibility of science and religion
That's true but I'm also sure it can be reconciled, and I'm also not interested enough to find out how.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Aussie, posted 05-16-2018 8:48 AM Aussie has not yet responded

    
Aussie
Member
Posts: 178
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 222 of 877 (833028)
05-16-2018 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
05-04-2018 8:20 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
There is no "Trinity" in the Bible either, but hundreds of references to God that clearly define One God in Three Persons.

This is also untrue Faith. The are not hundreds of references of references to the Trinity, and most of the few that are used in an attempt to justify it, are far from clear.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 05-04-2018 8:20 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 10:32 AM Aussie has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29170
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 223 of 877 (833030)
05-16-2018 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Aussie
05-16-2018 10:24 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
It should only take a few in any case, but I can show you hundreds nevertheless. Once it is clear there is only one God, and yet the Father is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Son is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Holy Spirit is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, that's the Trinity.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Aussie, posted 05-16-2018 10:24 AM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 05-16-2018 11:07 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 234 by Aussie, posted 05-16-2018 12:32 PM Faith has responded

    
Aussie
Member
Posts: 178
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 224 of 877 (833035)
05-16-2018 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
05-05-2018 12:49 PM


Re: Revising The Book
ringo writes:
Why would you reject what the Book says in favour of what some goober says?

Phat writes:

Because those were Bronze Age goobers who had limited knowledge of reality. Todays goobers have a better grasp of reality in most cases.

Hi Phat, am I not understanding something about you in regard to how you read Scripture. Silly and dismissive language aside, were these people merely "Bronze age Goobers," or were they men being used as the hand of God, writing His perfect Word, under His inspiration? This is not a small point to clarify; the entirety of conservative Christendom hinges on this Doctrinal Center of Gravity.

I Timothy describes Scripture as being given by Inspiration of God. The Greek word literally translates to "God-Breathed." Either those words are the breath of God given for our instruction, or they are actually the superstitious scribblings of long-dead "Bronze age Goobers."

If you hold to the former proposition, why such a seeming disrespect for the authors? And if they wrote under God's hand, God's knowledge of reality is not limited, and His words should still confound and amaze us even today. So we should not have a better grasp of reality today. Would you mind clarifying for me please?

Phat writes:
So because the book says so, you would conclude that at least, in that case, God considered some audience somewhere as his equals???

Ummm... Isn't that the point of the whole thing in terms of Conservative Christianity?

Because the Bible says so, we conclude that...?


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 05-05-2018 12:49 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Phat, posted 05-16-2018 11:24 AM Aussie has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10970
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 225 of 877 (833037)
05-16-2018 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
05-16-2018 10:32 AM


Perusing The Discussion...
Browsing this morning when I saw this exchange:
Aussie writes:

I suspect you are being dishonest here; dishonest with yourself as much as with the rest of us here following the conversation. Rather than a general lack of interest in this piece of "God-breathed" Scripture, I think it is much more likely that you have absolutely no idea how to reconcile this bald-faced contradiction in any meaningful way.


Faith writes:

That's true but I'm also sure it can be reconciled, and I'm also not interested enough to find out how.

Aussie writes:

There are not hundreds of references to the Trinity, and most of the few that are used in an attempt to justify it, are far from clear.

FYI, Ive never seen hundreds. The ones commonly used by the apologists are these:
Deuteronomy 6:4
Matthew 3:16-17
Matthew 28:19
2 Corinthians 13:14
1 Peter 1:2

Faith writes:

It should only take a few in any case, but I can show you hundreds nevertheless. Once it is clear there is only one God, and yet the Father is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Son is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Holy Spirit is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, that's the Trinity.

But Faith, Aussie has already been down that road and has read the book. How would it become clear to anyone not previously inclined that there is One God? Atheists see no God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 10:32 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by NoNukes, posted 05-16-2018 12:00 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
1314
15
1617
...
59NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018