Understanding through Discussion


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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Aussie
Member
Posts: 202
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 226 of 882 (833038)
05-16-2018 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
05-12-2018 12:38 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I already explained that slavery was too enmeshed in the culture's economy to forbid it.

This point really made me laugh out loud. You and other apologists are literally arguing a "Too Evil to Fail" policy. God is against evil, but if it gets too widespread, He'll go ahead and let it slide for a few thousand years. You are promoting a God only capable of focusing on the more "Detail-type," non-pervasive sins.

You don't suppose that Idolatry was at least as pervasive as slavery? God hit that particular point hard, why not slavery?

Idolatry was a great evil involving human sacrifice to demons and sexual acts of "worship."

Here we go again. So God punishes people who sacrifice their children to other gods, by ordering the death of more children to please Himself. Well done, Yahweh. Well done.

Again you find yourself publicly justifying killing kids, Faith.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 12:38 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11310
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 227 of 882 (833039)
05-16-2018 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Aussie
05-16-2018 10:55 AM


Re: Revising The Book
Aussie writes:

were these people merely "Bronze age Goobers," or were they men being used as the hand of God, writing His perfect Word, under His inspiration? This is not a small point to clarify; the entirety of conservative Christendom hinges on this Doctrinal Center of Gravity.

I Timothy describes Scripture as being given by Inspiration of God. The Greek word literally translates to "God-Breathed." Either those words are the breath of God given for our instruction, or they are actually the superstitious scribblings of long-dead "Bronze age Goobers."

If you hold to the former proposition, why such a seeming disrespect for the authors? And if they wrote under God's hand, God's knowledge of reality is not limited, and His words should still confound and amaze us even today. So we should not have a better grasp of reality today. Would you mind clarifying for me please?

Hi Aussie. IIRC, my exchange with ringo (in which we always have an undercurrent of humor)
was that ringo has followed jars belief in literal interpretation that ends up disagreeing with what classical apologetics concludes the book means.

jar claims that the OT God was "fumbling, indecisive and in need of correction". While this is strictly arguable, it frames the issue in light of the book simply being a made up product of man. The apologists would of course disagree.
I am aware of the whole argument of God-breathed scripture. It has been said this way before:

quote:
There are a few principles of interpretation that are basic for all sound
study of the Bible. They include the following: (1) Narratives should be
interpreted in light of “teaching” passages. For example, the story of
Abraham offering Isaac on Mount Moriah might suggest that God didn’t
know that Abraham had true faith. But the didactic portions of Scripture
make it clear that God is omniscient. (2) The implicit must always be
interpreted in light of the explicit; never the other way around. That is, if a
particular text seems to imply something, we should not accept the
implication as correct if it goes against something explicitly stated
elsewhere in Scripture. (3) The laws of logic govern biblical interpretation.
If, for example, we know that all cats have tails, we cannot then deduce
that some cats do not have tails. If it is true that some cats do not have
tails, then it cannot also be true that all cats have tails. This is not a matter
merely of technical laws of inference; it is a matter of common sense. Yet
the vast majority of erroneous interpretations of the Bible are caused by
illegitimate deductions from the Scripture.
In other words, to conclude that God was a bumbling fool learning on the job flies in the face of classical apologetics. ringo is essentially asking me why I should take the word as written since we all know that it was written by Bronze Age herdsman. I then ask him essentially why we rhetorically cannot assume that in this day and age we have superior understanding above them then.
I see your point, though.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Aussie, posted 05-16-2018 10:55 AM Aussie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 05-16-2018 11:44 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 228 of 882 (833041)
05-16-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Phat
05-16-2018 11:24 AM


Re: Revising The Book
Phat writes:

jar claims that the OT God was "fumbling, indecisive and in need of correction".

No Phat, jar has NEVER claimed that.

What jar has repeatedly said is that there is no God of the Old Testament but rather many often mutually exclusive descriptions of God in the Old Testament.

The God described in Genesis 2&3 is fumbling, fearful, learning on the job and indecisive.

The God in Genesis 18 is ignorant and also has his morality corrected by Abraham.

Phat, stop thinking of the Bible as one continuing saga; it's not. It is a collection of different tales by different authors created over untold centuries meat to reach the audience of the period when they were written and reflecting the God created by the peoples of that era.

Genesis is NOT one story.

There is no "God of the Old Testament" or "New Testament" or "The Bible".

The book doesn't need revising the readers need to get educated on the basics.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Phat, posted 05-16-2018 11:24 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Phat, posted 05-17-2018 11:16 AM jar has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 882 (833043)
05-16-2018 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
05-12-2018 12:38 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
duplicate

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 12:38 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 230 of 882 (833044)
05-16-2018 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
05-12-2018 12:38 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I already explained that slavery was too enmeshed in the culture's economy to forbid it.

Wow. What a mighty God you serve.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 12:38 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 202
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 231 of 882 (833046)
05-16-2018 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Faith
05-12-2018 10:51 PM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
If it bothers you that we stay home while the state does the deed out of our sight, we could always bring back public stoning. I think the main idea of that was that the whole community be involved in the act of justice. The "unclean" thing would be refusing to put to death someone who really deserves it.

The monsters dance quietly inside the church...They would persecute us all to the ends of the Earth.

This is exactly why civil society took power away from the Christians.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 05-12-2018 10:51 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 232 of 882 (833047)
05-16-2018 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Phat
05-16-2018 11:07 AM


Re: Perusing The Discussion...
FYI, Ive never seen hundreds. The ones commonly used by the apologists are these

I believe the list of dozens of verses has been posted in discussions here before. There are lots of apologist verses, and the reason that there is such a large number of citations is due to the huge stretch it takes to call any single one or small group of the verses evidence of their position.

And of course, there are equal numbers of verses that non-Trinitarians cite that provide very clear proof that Jesus considered himself and his Father to be not the same.

The only reason for the doctrine is that early Christians were accused by Jews of not having a monotheistic religion. The Trinity doctrine is the response to that accusation.

In my view, Trinity doctrine is at best iffy, and certainly not essential. But it is not the worst thing that fundamentalist graft onto the Bible. Calvinism would hold that bottom spot.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 05-16-2018 11:07 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 202
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 233 of 882 (833049)
05-16-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Faith
05-13-2018 4:57 AM


Re: Moral problems in the Bible?
I won't even defend myself. I knew the humorless lefties here would have to have some kind of fit of accusatory indignation. It's all they know how to do. Hey, put it in your signature so the whole leftie crew can get their daily rush of twisted moral indignation.

This also is dishonest. You CAN'T defend yourself. We aren't humorless, there is just nothing funny about killing an entire population wholesale because they are a different religion... "Damn those evil pregnant mothers, and don't get me going on their wicked, merciless embryos. Those pre-born babies probably can't wait to be sacrificed to some idol somewhere."

And reading your blood-stained words is not a rush of anything except jaw-dropping sadness and disbelief!

The moral indignation is a mere side effect.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 05-13-2018 4:57 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Aussie
Member
Posts: 202
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 234 of 882 (833053)
05-16-2018 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
05-16-2018 10:32 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
It should only take a few in any case, but I can show you hundreds nevertheless. Once it is clear there is only one God, and yet the Father is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Son is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Holy Spirit is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, that's the Trinity.

Faith, for goodness sake. We all know this isn't true! You cannot show hundreds of clear verses demonstrating the Trinity! It's not true! We all know you are being dishonest! Please stop. There are a few scattered verses in the NT mentioning a few variations on God, but just a few, and we all know you are not being honest here.

God never told Moses, "The LORD thy God is Three-in-One Lords," and I'm finding it hilariously ironic in this thread that Moses himself would have stoned you in public for believing in a Trinity.

Edited by Aussie, : Syntax


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 10:32 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 1:57 PM Aussie has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 235 of 882 (833056)
05-16-2018 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Aussie
05-16-2018 12:32 PM


Biblical proofs of the Trinity
Aussie writes:

Faith writes:

t should only take a few in any case, but I can show you hundreds nevertheless. Once it is clear there is only one God, and yet the Father is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Son is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, and the Holy Spirit is shown to be a separate Person as well as God, that's the Trinity.

Faith, for goodness sake. We all know this isn't true! You cannot show hundreds of clear verses demonstrating the Trinity! It's not true! We all know you are being dishonest! Please stop. There are a few scattered verses in the NT mentioning a few variations on God, but just a few, and we all know you are not being honest here.

God never told Moses, "The LORD thy God is Three-in-One Lords," and I'm finding it hilariously ironic in this thread that Moses himself would have stoned you in public for believing in a Trinity.

The following article claims to refer to about 700 biblical texts as in some way supporting the doctrine of the Trinity. I've presented it here before at least once. You may not find many of the texts convincing, but as he says, you do have to read the Bible correctly to understand such things.

(And by the way I've heard a good sermon on the subject of the Deity of Jesus Christ that claims there is proof of it on just about every page of the Bible, and in a great many quotes from Jesus Himself as well, if you are reading correctly. I can't produce the evidence of that right now though I certainly wish I could. I'm not even sure I could find the sermon that presented that claim. too bad I'm so lousy at keeping track of things.)

Robert Bowman, The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity

His outline and intro:

There Is One God
This God is Known In The OT As Jehovah/Yahweh ("The Lord")
God Is A Unique, Incomprehensible Being
Is God One Person?
The Father Of Jesus Christ Is God
Jesus Christ Is God
The Holy Spirit Is God
The Father, Son, And Holy Spirit Are Distinct Persons
Conclusion
What Difference Does The Doctrine Of The Trinity Make?

The following outline study presents an overview of the biblical basis of the doctrine of the Trinity. Comments on the texts have been kept to a bare minimum; the emphasis is on the many biblical texts themselves (about 700 references are listed, including references from 26 of the 27 books of the New Testament).

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Aussie, posted 05-16-2018 12:32 PM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2018 2:14 PM Faith has responded
 Message 248 by Aussie, posted 05-16-2018 4:37 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 236 of 882 (833058)
05-16-2018 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
05-16-2018 1:57 PM


Re: Biblical proofs of the Trinity
So instead of “hundreds” of clear statements of the Trinity you have none at all.

Perhaps you ought to think about how you manage to be so wrong about the Bible.

Listening to sermons from people who twist the Bible probably doesn’t help.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 1:57 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 2:36 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 237 of 882 (833064)
05-16-2018 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by PaulK
05-16-2018 2:14 PM


Re: Biblical proofs of the Trinity
I said there are hundreds of references that demonstrate the Trinity, I didn't say or imply that there are any direct statements directly declaring that God is three in one.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2018 2:14 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2018 2:57 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 238 of 882 (833067)
05-16-2018 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Faith
05-16-2018 2:36 PM


Re: Biblical proofs of the Trinity
You claimed that there were:

hundreds of references to God that clearly define One God in Three Persons.

As I said, you have none.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 2:36 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 3:14 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 239 of 882 (833068)
05-16-2018 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by PaulK
05-16-2018 2:57 PM


Re: Biblical proofs of the Trinity
I'm sorry, I thought it was clear I meant that TOGETHER they clearly define One God in Three Persons, but obviously not. Sorry, I will try to be more precise, but since I can never anticipate how I'm going to be misread I probably won't be able to pre-empt the usual misreadings.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2018 2:57 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by PaulK, posted 05-16-2018 3:20 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 240 of 882 (833071)
05-16-2018 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Faith
05-16-2018 3:14 PM


Re: Biblical proofs of the Trinity
quote:

I'm sorry, I thought it was clear I meant that TOGETHER they clearly define One God in Three Persons, but obviously not

I’d call that grossly misleading myself. If the Trinity has to be derived from putting together hundreds of references - and if it looks more like a way to try and munge differing views into one - it certainly isn’t that clear.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 3:14 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 3:38 PM PaulK has responded

    
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