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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Faith
Member
Posts: 29150
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 481 of 877 (833780)
05-26-2018 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by Percy
05-26-2018 12:41 PM


Re: Faith's fantasies vs reality
Whatever, Percy.

abe: Sorry, I'll have to try to get back to this stuff later.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Percy, posted 05-26-2018 12:41 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by Percy, posted 05-26-2018 1:47 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14906
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 482 of 877 (833781)
05-26-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 480 by Faith
05-26-2018 12:44 PM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Faith writes:

It's amazing how the whole point of the Bible's rescue from the demonic domination after the Fall can be turned into something else entirely.


It's amazing how "the Fall" can be made up out of thin air - and in complete contradiction to what the Bible actually says.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by Faith, posted 05-26-2018 12:44 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by Faith, posted 05-26-2018 1:03 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29150
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 483 of 877 (833783)
05-26-2018 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by ringo
05-26-2018 12:50 PM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
The Bible doesn't "actually say" anything that contradicts the Fall, ringo, it's just not in-your-face about some things because it aims to keep the demon hordes and self-deceived humanity in the dark about God's plan. These things are "spiritually discerned" and though Satan is very smart he's blinded by his own evil. The Fall is what it's all about, and God's rescue from it, in order to bring Satan and his hordes to final justice and free the Creation from their influence.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by ringo, posted 05-26-2018 12:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by ringo, posted 05-26-2018 1:15 PM Faith has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 484 of 877 (833784)
05-26-2018 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 480 by Faith
05-26-2018 12:44 PM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
You'll never get the truth about the work of God in this world if you follow the modern revisionist scholars, Mod.

And you'll never get to the truth about the work of man if you ignore them.

He planned to send a Savior from the tyranny of the demons starting all the way back in Eden.

He just kept it quiet.

In Jesus' time the demons were possessing many people who had either inherited or fallen into enough sin to allow them to possess them, and Jesus demonstrated His purpose and His power by setting them free.

Either way - Bible teachers do discuss the fact that the other gods might be treated as real as Yahweh in some parts of the Bible.

Your revisionist scholars have no clue about God's true plan either, and are continuing to seduce people away from His merciful salvation, joining with the demon gods themselves who are working tirelessly to keep as many as they can in their power and blind them to the promise of salvation.

Or maybe you've been seduced and the scholars are trying to explain the true nature of his merciful salvation.

That's kind of the problem with religion vs science. There's no way to tell the difference between these kinds of hypotheses.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by Faith, posted 05-26-2018 12:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14906
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 485 of 877 (833787)
05-26-2018 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by Faith
05-26-2018 1:03 PM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Faith writes:

The Bible doesn't "actually say" anything that contradicts the Fall,


Of course it does:
quote:
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil....

Becoming like God is not a fall.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by Faith, posted 05-26-2018 1:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by Faith, posted 05-26-2018 1:26 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29150
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 486 of 877 (833788)
05-26-2018 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 485 by ringo
05-26-2018 1:15 PM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
If you really believe that "knowing good and evil" was an improvement on our original condition, or that the Bible seems to say that, while we lost touch with our Creator and had to toil for a living among thorns and bear children in agony and suffer all kinds of sufferings, hideous diseases and death and murder and mayhem, you are stuck accepting a hostile environment as an improvement, a hostile God, a benevolent Satan who nevertheless tyrannizes us, a world of pain and death as opposed to the original Creation. You do all accept all that, don't you? You think it's normal. I guess I can't talk you out of it. You think that's a good thing, I don't, but you are stuck with it given your view of the eating of the apple. Anything to render the Bible meaningless I guess. In the end of course you just have to give up on it, no matter how clearly our actual reality fits the biblical description of its consequences. I'm sure you don't really feel you are "like God" -- either the true omnipotent good God or the evil God you think the Bible talks about.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by ringo, posted 05-26-2018 1:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by ringo, posted 05-27-2018 2:15 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 501 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-27-2018 5:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17563
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 487 of 877 (833789)
05-26-2018 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Faith
05-26-2018 11:30 AM


Re: Faith's fantasies vs reality
Faith writes:

Instead of conjuring up contradictions and inconsistencies, how about making a BIG effort to figure out what I actually meant? I just went through a ridiculous series of posts with NN about something similar. I finally gave up because he won't try to figure out what I meant and insists I'm contradicting myself when I'm not. It's just a matter of recognizing distinctions but whatever. This gets very tedious after a while.

You don't quote anything I said, so it's impossible to tell what you think I misunderstood. Given that I only asked questions seeking clarification it's hard to imagine what any misunderstanding might exist. I can only repeat my questions.

How can you believe creationists have already proven the flood when you also believe the required evidence hasn't materialized yet?

Why do you think forensics only works for the witnessed and historical, which seems in opposition to its true utility in unveiling information about the unwitnessed and unhistorical?

Why do you think evidence from the distant past can't be analyzed?

How do you know where the distant past begins? Or put another way, how distant is too distant and how do you know?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Faith, posted 05-26-2018 11:30 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by Faith, posted 05-26-2018 1:32 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29150
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 488 of 877 (833790)
05-26-2018 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by Percy
05-26-2018 1:28 PM


Re: Faith's fantasies vs reality
But I DO believe the "required evidence" has "materialized." I'm sure you derived that from something I said that you misread, but you got it wrong. Oh well, nothing new there.

You said something about how I was being inconsistent about something, but I no longer care to track it down.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by Percy, posted 05-26-2018 1:28 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by Percy, posted 05-26-2018 1:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17563
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 489 of 877 (833793)
05-26-2018 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by Faith
05-26-2018 12:45 PM


Re: Faith's fantasies vs reality
Faith writes:

Whatever, Percy.

abe: Sorry, I'll have to try to get back to this stuff later.

You rarely follow through on these promises to return to posts you haven't answered. Repeating the important points:

  • Forensics requires neither witnesses nor historicity. It only requires evidence to analyze, just like science. Because it is a science.

  • When evidence has survived to the present, there is no limit to how far back in time forensics will work. The same is true of science.

  • Science avoids assumptions and tries to underpin its understandings with facts and evidence.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by Faith, posted 05-26-2018 12:45 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by Faith, posted 05-26-2018 1:50 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29150
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 490 of 877 (833794)
05-26-2018 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Percy
05-26-2018 1:47 PM


Re: Faith's fantasies vs reality
You misunderstand the implications of "witnesses," you misunderstand just about everything I say, and yes I probably won't get back to trying to set you straight. It never works and there's always more coming at me. Hey maybe it's my fault, but since I've done the best I know how to do there's nothing I can do about that anyway. OH WELL.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Percy, posted 05-26-2018 1:47 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 492 by Percy, posted 05-26-2018 2:10 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 497 by JonF, posted 05-26-2018 5:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17563
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 491 of 877 (833795)
05-26-2018 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by Faith
05-26-2018 1:32 PM


Re: Faith's fantasies vs reality
Faith writes:

But I DO believe the "required evidence" has "materialized." I'm sure you derived that from something I said that you misread, but you got it wrong. Oh well, nothing new there.

Well, it's nothing new that you're contradicting yourself again. First you said Flood evidence was coming soon:

"Fear not, I think all this assumption and speculation will soon be tumbling down as there will be proof of the Flood. I feel it in my bones as it were." (from your Message 454)

Then just a bit later you said the evidence already existed:

"Ah, I do have to admit it's mostly wishful thinking, but I think today's evidence by creationists happens to be very good, and in fact I think they've proven the Flood, it's just a matter of getting the material organized effectively and presented effectively. I'm hoping." (from your Message 458)

I summed it up this way in my Message 468:

Percy in Message 468 writes:

Faith writes:

Why do you think Flood evidence is imminent now after all these centuries?

Ah, I do have to admit it's mostly wishful thinking,...

You say it's "mostly wishful thinking", but then you say:

...but I think today's evidence by creationists happens to be very good, and in fact I think they've proven the Flood, it's just a matter of getting the material organized effectively and presented effectively. I'm hoping.

This is inconsistent with your other statements. It is expressed with much certainty and not as wishful thinking, and how can you believe creationists have already proven the flood when you also believe the required evidence hasn't materialized yet?

You ignored the other questions:

Why do you think forensics only works for the witnessed and historical, which seems in opposition to its true utility in unveiling information about the unwitnessed and unhistorical?

Why do you think evidence from the distant past can't be analyzed?

How do you know where the distant past begins? Or put another way, how distant is too distant and how do you know?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by Faith, posted 05-26-2018 1:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17563
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 492 of 877 (833797)
05-26-2018 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 490 by Faith
05-26-2018 1:50 PM


Re: Faith's fantasies vs reality
Faith writes:

You misunderstand the implications of "witnesses,"

What were you implying when you said forensics requires witnesses?

...you misunderstand just about everything I say,...

I'm pretty sure my understanding of what you say is pretty much the same as everyone else here reading your posts.

...and yes I probably won't get back to trying to set you straight.

Given your history, everyone will believe your refusal to explain is because you can't. You'd be better served explaining what you meant.

It never works and there's always more coming at me.

As long as you continue making claims that are unconnected to real world evidence and rational thinking then people will continue to question what you say.

Hey maybe it's my fault,...

Ya think?

...but since I've done the best I know how to do there's nothing I can do about that anyway. OH WELL.

Anyone can choose to base what they say on real-world evidence and rational thinking, so I don't think you're doing the best you can do.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by Faith, posted 05-26-2018 1:50 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10968
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 493 of 877 (833802)
05-26-2018 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
05-04-2018 12:00 PM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Faith,to ringo writes:

I'm sure you don't really feel you are "like God" -- either the true omnipotent good God or the evil God you think the Bible talks about.

No, many don't even believe in God, but they explain it all away by declaring that human wisdom is all we have and all we ever had and that through math and science all can be explained better than old fables and dogma can explain it.

Lets assume for a moment that there actually is a true revelation inferred in and through the Bible and that the so-called dogma of our cult--which would be labled by jar as the CCoI (Christian Culture Of Ignorance) was actually close to being true. If so, keep in mind that the very words that you type here on this forum are the salvos of revelation from the Holy Spirit. That means that everytime you get mad, insulted, or angered by the comments of others (who are unknowing tools of satan) you actually make Christians look weak, desperate, and uncaring of real world evidence.
Now,lets take jar...since he is the logic, reason, and reality apostle to the atheists.
He claims to have no agenda and no bias...but his own quotes indict him:

jar writes:

...all we have is our own understanding and the best we can ever have is our own understanding which is then tested against physical reality.
The Bible is no greater source of wisdom and knowledge than the Qu'ran or Tao Te Ching or the Vedas.

The agenda? Teaching that the Bible is just another book. Also teaching that all religions and beliefs are equally valid.

jar writes:

Humans ain't any more special than pond scum and that's a fact Jack!
You want to be special? Then throw away your dogma and begin to learn.

The belief here is that human wisdom (ye shall be as gods...) is all that we have or ever will have. Worship focuses around communion with each other and doing as Jesus did...feeding the hungry, comforting the sorrowful and clothing the naked. This is good teaching except that it brings Christianity down to the level of humanism. Churches may as well be the United Way!

jar writes:

But there is no Fall in the Bible Faith. Nor is there any claim of some original perfect mankind. In fact the best that can be said is that God looked at all of creation and found it very good; humans no better than pond scum it seems.

In other words, humans simply need to man up and be responsible and learn to help each other and that this planet will make it if we do as Jesus taught. The agenda? That we are responsible and no God is gonna save us or bail us out. My only comment on that is that if the world fell into another war that caused mass poverty, death, and destruction, dollars will get you doughnuts that people would turn to the belief that Jesus will give us a way out. jar would preach that humans would have to pick themselves up and start over again. One side believes Jesus saves. The other side believes that humans and only humans can help (or hurt) themselves.

jar writes:

the marketing of Jesus dying on the cross as a sacrifice is also one of the perversions common throughout much of Christianity; a perversion that totally diminishes Jesus, his message and even the Christian God.

The "dogma of this cult" is that jesus was a teacher who taught us what we could become and was a human as the rest of us.

All of this wouldnt be so bad if jar and others had more respect for what the mainstream apologists and Christian leaders teach and believe. They dont have to agree with it so much as simply acknowlege that the majority of mainstream orthodox teaching supports a Divine jesus, a sacrifice on the cross, and relationship with God and others.

Instead,. mainstream belief is belittled and ridiculed. "a carney sideshow...palming the pea...misdirecting the audiences attention"....while logic, reason, and reality are preached....which seems rational on the surface until one thinks out the implications of such a religion.

jar writes:

Remember Faith, many of us have actually read the Bible itself.

Many of whom?
Reading the Bible without acknowleging God is like reading Moby Dick without believing in whales.

jar writes:

There is no single purpose or even thread that runs through all of the various stories that get included in Bibles.

The Bible is a collection of disparate and unconnected writings selected, edited, redacted and even revised by unknown authors, writers, editors, redactor and committee of Canon.

Christianity is a human creation, part theological but primarily political in nature.

I would argue that the Bible does have a connection and purpose. it is not simply some critical book of antiquity to be studied alongside the other beliefs.

The Gideons summarize it well in the introductory statement in every Bible they place:

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the travelerís map, the pilgrimís staff, the pilotís compass, the soldierís sword and the Christianís charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 05-04-2018 12:00 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by jar, posted 05-26-2018 5:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 500 by ringo, posted 05-27-2018 2:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 494 of 877 (833804)
05-26-2018 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by Phat
05-26-2018 11:45 AM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Phat writes:

Why don't most Bible teachers mention this?

Ignorance or the common adoption of the dogma instead of what the Bible actually says.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios † † My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by Phat, posted 05-26-2018 11:45 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 495 of 877 (833805)
05-26-2018 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 493 by Phat
05-26-2018 4:10 PM


Re: On "Original Sin" and "The Fall"
Phat writes:

The agenda? Teaching that the Bible is just another book. Also teaching that all religions and beliefs are equally valid.

I don't teach anything Phat, I simply report. And what I actually say is that all religions are equally invalid. Religions are just things created by men.

Phat writes:

The belief here is that human wisdom (ye shall be as gods...) is all that we have or ever will have. Worship focuses around communion with each other and doing as Jesus did...feeding the hungry, comforting the sorrowful and clothing the naked. This is good teaching except that it brings Christianity down to the level of humanism. Churches may as well be the United Way!

No Phat, there you go making stuff up again. It was the God character in the Bible that said we had gained the knowledge of the Gods.

But yes, human wisdom really is all we can ever have. There is no other source of wisdom. If there is, please explain just how you get such wisdom?

Phat writes:

In other words, humans simply need to man up and be responsible and learn to help each other and that this planet will make it if we do as Jesus taught. The agenda? That we are responsible and no God is gonna save us or bail us out. My only comment on that is that if the world fell into another war that caused mass poverty, death, and destruction, dollars will get you doughnuts that people would turn to the belief that Jesus will give us a way out. jar would preach that humans would have to pick themselves up and start over again. One side believes Jesus saves. The other side believes that humans and only humans can help (or hurt) themselves.

No Phat, again you are simply misrepresenting what I have said. Do you have ANY examples that show God or Jesus stepping in and fixing stuff?

Phat writes:

The "dogma of this cult" is that jesus was a teacher who taught us what we could become and was a human as the rest of us.

All of this wouldnt be so bad if jar and others had more respect for what the mainstream apologists and Christian leaders teach and believe. They dont have to agree with it so much as simply acknowlege that the majority of mainstream orthodox teaching supports a Divine jesus, a sacrifice on the cross, and relationship with God and others.

Instead,. mainstream belief is belittled and ridiculed. "a carney sideshow...palming the pea...misdirecting the audiences attention"....while logic, reason, and reality are preached....which seems rational on the surface until one thinks out the implications of such a religion.

But again Phat, logic, reason and reality are NOT a religion, Thank God.

Phat writes:

Reading the Bible without acknowleging God is like reading Moby Dick without believing in whales.

No Phat, that's another example of a piss poor bumper sticker. It's like reading Moby Dick without believing in wumperdoodles. Whales can be seen, tested, counted, verified, tasted, used as fuel or perfume. But there is NO equivalent God.

Phat writes:

I would argue that the Bible does have a connection and purpose. it is not simply some critical book of antiquity to be studied alongside the other beliefs.

The Gideons summarize it well in the introductory statement in every Bible they place:

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the travelerís map, the pilgrimís staff, the pilotís compass, the soldierís sword and the Christianís charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

Word Salad Phat. Word salad.

But religions can be a path, a guide and somewhat connected to reality at times.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios † † My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 493 by Phat, posted 05-26-2018 4:10 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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