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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 796 of 882 (835406)
06-23-2018 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 794 by Faith
06-23-2018 11:00 AM


Re: penal substitution
The concept of penal substitution is implicit in the Old Testament image of the sacrificial lamb and the scapegoat that was released into the desert bearing the sins of the people.

I think most Christians would agree with most of that sentence, however, as is the case with many doctrines or concepts, there are differences in belief and subtle things that are harder to defend scripturally. The quoted scripture would support almost all of the more widely held doctrines of substitutionary atonement.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 794 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 11:00 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 797 of 882 (835407)
06-23-2018 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 791 by PaulK
06-23-2018 6:15 AM


Traditional Orthodox Teaching vs Reality
well, you do have a point.

Personally, I don't believe that these early doctrines are necessary reflections of reality--- let us just say that I remain unconvinced---but I was defending Faith based on the source of the doctrines rather than the content and belief in authoritative orthodox teaching. She holds to the content as infallible and basically non-negotiable philosophically, whereas I do not.

My critics from within the church would say that I remain uncommitted to endorsing orthodox belief.

My critics here at EvC would say that I remain willfully ignorant by even considering such beliefs as logical, reasonable, or rational.

And jar could be a little nicer to his opponent rather than repeating the idea that modern Biblical Christians are willfully ignorant. Why not ask Faith why traditional orthodox teaching must never be questioned?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 791 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2018 6:15 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 798 of 882 (835412)
06-23-2018 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 790 by Phat
06-23-2018 5:38 AM


Re: heretics
Phat writes:

There is no such thing as a "Christian Cult of Ignorance and Dishonesty".


Members of a cult never know they're in a cult. They just think they have The Truth.

Phat writes:

To assert that early Christianity was a cheap marketing gimmick only holds water as a baldfaced assertion without evidence. There is no evidence that anyone was selling anything.


You keep misunderstanding what "marketing" means. It isn't necessarily a cash transaction. Evangelism is inherently a form of marketing.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 790 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 5:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 799 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 12:11 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 799 of 882 (835415)
06-23-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 798 by ringo
06-23-2018 11:48 AM


Re: heretics
I can't even figure out how anyone calls mainstream Protestant traditional Christianity a "cult." The list of well known Christians in Message 777 ought to be enough to put this nonsense to rest, but nothing is ever enough for that at EvC.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 798 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 11:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 800 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 12:43 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 800 of 882 (835422)
06-23-2018 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 799 by Faith
06-23-2018 12:11 PM


Re: heretics
Faith writes:

I can't even figure out how anyone calls mainstream Protestant traditional Christianity a "cult."


I have said somewhere else what I consider a cult to be: a group that considers itself (its leaders) the authority on everything, that discourages its members from looking/learning outside the group, that cites "authorities" rather than evidence. You certainly fit that description, as do the Moonies, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.

Faith writes:

The list of well known Christians in Message 777....


I have pointed out to you before that you have cited Catholics as authorities. Do you relly want that list scrutinized? I suspect we would find people on it who disagree with you.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 12:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 801 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 12:48 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 801 of 882 (835424)
06-23-2018 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 800 by ringo
06-23-2018 12:43 PM


Re: heretics
By your standard there could never be a body of doctrine that wasn't a cult.

There are no "liberal Christians" on that list, go ahead and check, but there will always be minor points of disagreement. And there were Catholics in the history of Christianity who WERE Christians, or there could never have been a Reformation which was brought about by Catholics. But I don't think there are any Catholics on my list.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 800 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 12:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 802 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 12:59 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 802 of 882 (835431)
06-23-2018 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 801 by Faith
06-23-2018 12:48 PM


Re: heretics
Faith writes:

By your standard there could never be a body of doctrine that wasn't a cult.


Bingo.

Note that Judaism doesn't have a solid body of doctrine; everything is open to interpretation. Note how Jesus reinterpreted the Pharisees' interpretation.

Similarly, the "liberal" Christianity that you spit on is somewhat flexible in its interpretation - i.e. more Christ-like.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 801 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 12:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 803 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 1:00 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 803 of 882 (835432)
06-23-2018 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 802 by ringo
06-23-2018 12:59 PM


Re: heretics
Oy.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 802 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 12:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 804 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 1:06 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 804 of 882 (835434)
06-23-2018 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 803 by Faith
06-23-2018 1:00 PM


Re: heretics
Faith writes:

Oy.


Vey.

If you're going to use their language, you should show some respect for their views.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 803 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 1:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 805 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 2:40 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 805 of 882 (835446)
06-23-2018 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 804 by ringo
06-23-2018 1:06 PM


Re: heretics
I'm still flabbergasted at your irrational idea that a body of doctrine has to be a cuit. And Judaism DOES have a body of doctrine. There is no organized institution on the planet that doesn't have a coherent body of doctrine.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 1:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 806 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 3:08 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 806 of 882 (835452)
06-23-2018 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 805 by Faith
06-23-2018 2:40 PM


Re: heretics
Faith writes:

There is no organized institution on the planet that doesn't have a coherent body of doctrine.


There's a difference between a coherent body of doctrine and a fixed, dogmatic one. A cult protects its doctrine from reality.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 805 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 2:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 807 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 3:17 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 807 of 882 (835455)
06-23-2018 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 806 by ringo
06-23-2018 3:08 PM


Re: heretics
You are the one inventing a "fixed dogmatic" doctrine, not I.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 806 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 3:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 808 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 3:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 808 of 882 (835461)
06-23-2018 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 807 by Faith
06-23-2018 3:17 PM


Re: heretics
Faith writes:

You are the one inventing a "fixed dogmatic" doctrine, not I.


On the contrary, you're the one who insists that all truth comes from the Bible - but not from what the Bible actually says, only what your "orthodox authorities" say it says. To me that describes a cult.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 807 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 3:17 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 809 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:16 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 809 of 882 (835466)
06-23-2018 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 808 by ringo
06-23-2018 3:38 PM


Re: heretics
ringo,to Faith writes:

you're the one who insists that all truth comes from the Bible - but not from what the Bible actually says, only what your "orthodox authorities" say it says.

To me, consensus comes from a wide and varied audience--not from one old codger with critical thinking who argued philosophy on a battleship gray front porch and who formed his own dogmatic views.

There are ground rules within the framework of the consensus.

God by definition does not lie. satan by definition has no truth in him. Making up a new rule based on one's own interpretation of what is written will have to pass the muster of the group. Otherwise, we may as well introduce Loki and the spaghetti monster as reasonable alternatives to the Creator of all seen and unseen.

Which can be done of course. I vote to stick to the concept of an intelligent Creator who is not learning on the job and who is not simply a product of the imagination of early authors...no matter what inspiration is claimed for them. After all, if they could be inspired, why can't we also?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 808 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 3:38 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 810 by jar, posted 06-23-2018 4:23 PM Phat has responded
 Message 811 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 4:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 810 of 882 (835468)
06-23-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 809 by Phat
06-23-2018 4:16 PM


Re: heretics
Phat writes:

God by definition does not lie. satan by definition has no truth in him

But that is not what the Bible says and so you are now placing dogma above what is actually written.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 809 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:16 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 812 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:30 PM jar has responded

  
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