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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 811 of 882 (835470)
06-23-2018 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 809 by Phat
06-23-2018 4:16 PM


Re: heretics
Phat writes:

To me, consensus comes from a wide and varied audience--not from one old codger with critical thinking who argued philosophy on a battleship gray front porch and who formed his own dogmatic views.


So you're agreeing with me?

Phat writes:

Otherwise, we may as well introduce Loki and the spaghetti monster as reasonable alternatives to the Creator of all seen and unseen.


Yes. We've already done that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 809 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11129
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 812 of 882 (835471)
06-23-2018 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 810 by jar
06-23-2018 4:23 PM


Re: heretics
I quote John 8:44 but of course, you will say that it is altered marketing. There is no winning with you.

John8:44 writes:

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 810 by jar, posted 06-23-2018 4:23 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 813 by jar, posted 06-23-2018 4:36 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30836
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 813 of 882 (835473)
06-23-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 812 by Phat
06-23-2018 4:30 PM


Re: heretics
And I can quote Genesis 2&3.

The point Phat is that the Bible is as it should be, inconsistent, contradictory and filled with factual errors. What is left is the God(s) that humans create, whether the author of John or the author of Genesis 2&3.

When you make statements like God does not lie or Satan does not tell the truth you are worshiping the God you create.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 812 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4486
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 814 of 882 (835481)
06-23-2018 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 795 by Faith
06-23-2018 11:07 AM


Re: heretics
Faith writes:

thanks. What she says doesn't completely do away with penal substitution and at least she acknowledges the importance of the atonement as substitutionary, which is better than I expected. I suspect there is some implicit waffling on the meaning of terms involved but for now I'll just take it at face value.

I thing that struck me about Rutledge's book was not about correct doctrine at all. All Christians come to their own conclusions about the nature of God and what it means to our lives and how we should live them. Doctrine is interesting but what is primary is how we allow whatever doctrine we choose to shape our hearts and through that our lives.

What really struck me about the book was the answer to a question somebody asked recently at a study which was 'why does Paul go on about not being ashamed to preach a crucified messiah'. This book very much painted a picture of not only the horrendous suffering involved in dying in that manner, but the the humiliation and shame of it.

One of the reasons for crucifixion was to absolutely shame and humiliate the person being crucified. A Roman citizen could not being crucified and it was only done to the lowest members of society. The individual would be stripped naked, nailed or hung on a cross, and would be subject to having both stones and taunts thrown at them. It was designed to dehumanize people. The idea of a crucified messiah was absolutely scandalous to Jews and ridiculous to Gentiles. In spite of this Paul goes on at great personal cost to himself preaching a crucified messiah.

It obviously took something very powerful to convince the early Christians, (even before they were called that), that there was a reason to claim that Jesus really was the Messiah even though He had been thoroughly discredited by the fact that He had been crucified. Their claim was that the reason was the resurrection, and from what I read that is the only sensible explanation for the rise of the Christian faith.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 795 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 11:07 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 815 by Faith, posted 06-23-2018 10:43 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 816 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2018 3:04 AM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29523
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 815 of 882 (835488)
06-23-2018 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 814 by GDR
06-23-2018 8:02 PM


Re: heretics
I don't want to diminish her presentation of the cross as instrument of humiliation and degradation and shame as well as torture because it sounds like she did a good job of it, but I get the impression she's just discovered it, or those in her theological camp haven't been aware of it and need her to bring it to their attention, although it is biblical and preached on quite a bit in my theological camp..
This message is a reply to:
 Message 814 by GDR, posted 06-23-2018 8:02 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6078
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 816 of 882 (835504)
06-24-2018 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 814 by GDR
06-23-2018 8:02 PM


Re: heretics
GDR writes:

why does Paul go on about not being ashamed to preach a crucified messia

The obvious answer is because he failed. He wasn't the messia. That why the Jews are still waiting. It's why the ressurection story had to be invented and why it's now so important for Christians.

The simple facts are that a man was killed, stayed killed and the claims he made about a second coming didn't happen. The whole thing failed. Hence Paul's shame - he was flat out wrong but had to carry on with the claim.

He's was just doing what Faith does now believing something despite the evidence and spinning stories to make it fit the belief.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 814 by GDR, posted 06-23-2018 8:02 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 817 by Phat, posted 06-24-2018 3:14 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 819 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 8:38 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 823 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 12:04 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11129
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 817 of 882 (835505)
06-24-2018 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 816 by Tangle
06-24-2018 3:04 AM


Re: heretics
The simple facts are that a man was killed, stayed killed and the claims he made about a second coming didn't happen.
What facts?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2018 3:04 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 818 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2018 3:27 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6078
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 818 of 882 (835507)
06-24-2018 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 817 by Phat
06-24-2018 3:14 AM


Re: heretics
Phat writes:

What facts?

I haven't noticed a second coming, have you?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 817 by Phat, posted 06-24-2018 3:14 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29523
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 819 of 882 (835512)
06-24-2018 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 816 by Tangle
06-24-2018 3:04 AM


Re: heretics
Tangle writes:

GDR writes:

why does Paul go on about not being ashamed to preach a crucified messia

The obvious answer is because he failed. He wasn't the messia. That why the Jews are still waiting. It's why the ressurection story had to be invented and why it's now so important for Christians.
The simple facts are that a man was killed, stayed killed and the claims he made about a second coming didn't happen. The whole thing failed. Hence Paul's shame - he was flat out wrong but had to carry on with the claim.

He's was just doing what Faith does now believing something despite the evidence and spinning stories to make it fit the belief.

GDR is right: Paul mentions shame because crucifixion was such a shameful way to die and both the Jews and the Greeks considered the whole idea of a dying Messiah to be absurd.

The idea that the disciples made any of this up is even more absurd since they were quite intimidated by Jesus' death and stayed secluded for fear until Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, and then they knew the truth about His death and resurrection, after which they boldly proclaimed it.

The Second Coming, by the way, is still future, but a lot of us feel it can't be very far off.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2018 3:04 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 820 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2018 11:42 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6078
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 820 of 882 (835538)
06-24-2018 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 819 by Faith
06-24-2018 8:38 AM


Re: heretics
Faith writes:

The idea that the disciples made any of this up is even more absurd since they were quite intimidated by Jesus' death and stayed secluded for fear until Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, and then they knew the truth about His death and resurrection, after which they boldly proclaimed it.

Just another weak story invented to cover up the fact that the 'god' was afterall simply mortal. And that the prophecies failed and remain failed.

The Second Coming, by the way, is still future, but a lot of us feel it can't be very far off.

It's very obvious from the bible itself that Jesus's followers expected the second coming pretty immediately. Didn't happen and people like you have been forecasting it to be 'soon' for 2,000 years. Hasn't happened, won't happen. It's just a bedtime story Faith.

GDR loves CS Lewis. He's as big a fraud as the rest of the apologists but he at least got this right.

quote:
“Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.


C.S. Lewis, "The World's Last Night" (1960)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 819 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 8:38 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 821 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 12:35 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29523
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 821 of 882 (835555)
06-25-2018 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 820 by Tangle
06-24-2018 11:42 AM


Re: heretics
Just another weak story invented to cover up the fact that the 'god' was afterall simply mortal. And that the prophecies failed and remain failed.

I suppose you believe the lie that His body was stolen out of the tomb too?

I suspect you left out the rest of C. S. Lewis' statement since you only quoted what he paraphrased of what the debunkers say.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 820 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2018 11:42 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 822 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2018 3:22 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6078
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 822 of 882 (835560)
06-25-2018 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 821 by Faith
06-25-2018 12:35 AM


Re: heretics
Faith writes:

I suppose you believe the lie that His body was stolen out of the tomb too?

I don't believe a word of the entire story, it's just a story.

I suspect you left out the rest of C. S. Lewis' statement since you only quoted what he paraphrased of what the debunkers say.

You can very easily find it if you want to.

He goes on to say that Jesus - even though he said the second coming would be within the lifetimes of the people listening - was also unable to say exactly what particular day in their lifetime the big event would happen, and because he can't do this it's strong evidence that it's true! It's hilarious stuff.

quote:
Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.

Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side. That they stood thus in the mouth of Jesus himself, and were not merely placed thus by the reporter, we surely need not doubt. Unless the reporter were perfectly honest he would never have recorded the confession of ignorance at all; he could have had no motive for doing so except a desire to tell the whole truth. And unless later copyists were equally honest they would never have preserved the (apparently) mistaken prediction about “this generation” after the passage of time had shown the (apparent) mistake. This passage (Mark 13:30-32) and the cry “Why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34) together make up the strongest proof that the New Testament is historically reliable. The evangelists have the first great characteristic of honest witnesses: they mention facts which are, at first sight, damaging to their main contention.



Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 821 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 12:35 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 840 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 6:09 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4486
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 823 of 882 (835574)
06-25-2018 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 816 by Tangle
06-24-2018 3:04 AM


Re: heretics
GDR writes:

why does Paul go on about not being ashamed to preach a crucified messia

Tangle writes:

The obvious answer is because he failed. He wasn't the messia. That why the Jews are still waiting. It's why the ressurection story had to be invented and why it's now so important for Christians.

The simple facts are that a man was killed, stayed killed and the claims he made about a second coming didn't happen. The whole thing failed. Hence Paul's shame - he was flat out wrong but had to carry on with the claim.

He's was just doing what Faith does now believing something despite the evidence and spinning stories to make it fit the belief.


Firstly that wasn't the point of my statement. The idea that a crucified would be dreamed up by any Jew at the time, let alone Paul, is ridiculous. It was so shameful that Paul has to address the issue by starting off saying that he wasn't ashamed to preach a crucified messiah.

You will no doubt argue against this but there are so many things in the NT that it makes no sense for us now to believe that the writers didn't believe the accounts to be true. No Jew would concoct a story about a crucified messiah.

In addition to that we have people sacrificing their lives for this belief right from the beginning. Paul himself spent the bulk of the rest of his life suffering long stretches of imprisonment, numerous beatings and eventually death to support his beliefs.

You can say that they were somehow mistaken as to what happened but it is nonsense to contend that they just made the whole thing up. Sure there are inconsistencies in the story and no doubt there are embellishments and biases influencing their accounts but obviously they believed in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2018 3:04 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 824 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 12:26 PM GDR has responded
 Message 826 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2018 12:31 PM GDR has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15119
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 824 of 882 (835575)
06-25-2018 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 823 by GDR
06-25-2018 12:04 PM


Re: heretics
GDR writes:

No Jew would concoct a story about a crucified messiah.


You can't assume that nobody "would" make up such a thing so it must be true. You might as well say that nobody "would" climb Mount Everest or go to the ISS if he/she was afraid of heights. You don't have the data to back up that assumption.

GDR writes:

In addition to that we have people sacrificing their lives for this belief right from the beginning.


So did the Mormons.

GDR writes:

You can say that they were somehow mistaken as to what happened but it is nonsense to contend that they just made the whole thing up.


It seem to me that it's your assumptions that are nonsense.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 12:04 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 825 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 12:31 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4486
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 825 of 882 (835576)
06-25-2018 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 824 by ringo
06-25-2018 12:26 PM


Re: heretics
ringo writes:

You can't assume that nobody "would" make up such a thing so it must be true. You might as well say that nobody "would" climb Mount Everest or go to the ISS if he/she was afraid of heights. You don't have the data to back up that assumption.

That wasn't my point. My point was that they believed it to be true which does not make it true. Whether it is actually true or not is a different discussion.
ringo writes:

So did the Mormons.

.. and obviously they also believed in what they died for.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 824 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 12:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 827 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 12:39 PM GDR has responded

    
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