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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 826 of 882 (835577)
06-25-2018 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 823 by GDR
06-25-2018 12:04 PM


Re: heretics
GDR writes:

The idea that a crucified would be dreamed up by any Jew at the time, let alone Paul, is ridiculous. It was so shameful that Paul has to address the issue by starting off saying that he wasn't ashamed to preach a crucified messiah.

If you take the view that someone called Jesus was indeed crucified it's not ridiculous at all to report it. He'd have to report it because those around at the time would know.

But having reported that the messia was dead, he then had to make it all ok again by inventing the whole cock-and-bull story about a subsequent resurrection. THAT's the ridiculous part.

In addition to that we have people sacrificing their lives for this belief right from the beginning. Paul himself spent the bulk of the rest of his life suffering long stretches of imprisonment, numerous beatings and eventually death to support his beliefs.

So what? He believed his own story. There are people blowing themselves for their mistaken beliefs every day. It's a common place.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 12:04 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 830 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 1:09 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 827 of 882 (835578)
06-25-2018 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by GDR
06-25-2018 12:31 PM


Re: heretics
GDR writes:

My point was that they believed it to be true which does not make it true.


Whether or not they believed it was true is irrelevant.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 12:31 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 12:47 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4557
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 828 of 882 (835579)
06-25-2018 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by ringo
06-25-2018 12:39 PM


Re: heretics
ringo writes:


Whether or not they believed it was true is irrelevant.

Of course it's relevant.If they didn't believe it and they knew it to be fiction then there is no reason to pay any attention to it. If they believe it then we can come to our own conclusions about whether it is true or not.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 12:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 829 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 12:56 PM GDR has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 829 of 882 (835580)
06-25-2018 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 828 by GDR
06-25-2018 12:47 PM


Re: heretics
GDR writes:

If they didn't believe it and they knew it to be fiction then there is no reason to pay any attention to it.


There is no reason to pay attention to it because we know its fiction.

GDR writes:

If they believe it then we can come to our own conclusions about whether it is true or not.


Again, whether or not they believed it was true is irrelevant. Our own conclusions should be based only on facts. It could be true even if they thought it was fiction - or it could be false even if they thought it was true.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 828 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 12:47 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 831 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 1:15 PM ringo has responded
 Message 838 by Phat, posted 06-25-2018 3:18 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4557
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 830 of 882 (835581)
06-25-2018 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 826 by Tangle
06-25-2018 12:31 PM


Re: heretics
Tangle writes:

If you take the view that someone called Jesus was indeed crucified it's not ridiculous at all to report it. He'd have to report it because those around at the time would know.

But having reported that the messia was dead, he then had to make it all ok again by inventing the whole cock-and-bull story about a subsequent resurrection. THAT's the ridiculous part.

There were numerous messianic movements over roughly a 200 year period. In virtually all, if not all, cases the messianic leaders were put to death and that was the end of the movement. In many of the cases the messianic figures actually had varying degrees of success in that they actually held some degree of power.

One example is the Bar Kokhba revolt in 132 AD. They even has three where they minted coinswith the years 1,2 and3 on them. A very prominent Rabbi at the time Rabbi Akiva claimed that Bar Kokhba was the messiah. After they were put to deat, as was usual, the movement ended and as usual Bar Kokhba was simply considered another failed messiah.

Here was a messianic figure who achieved nothing of what was expected of a messiah and was put to death in the most shameful way possible, with his followers all bailing out and yet they come back and dedicate their lives to following him. Something happened to cause this turn around and they have given an account of what that something was.

Tangle writes:

So what? He believed his own story. There are people blowing themselves for their mistaken beliefs every day. It's a common place.

Sure, but there was something that caused him to leave his life persecuting the early Christians to being one their foremost leaders. We draw our own conclusions.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 826 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2018 12:31 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 833 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2018 1:35 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4557
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 831 of 882 (835582)
06-25-2018 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 829 by ringo
06-25-2018 12:56 PM


Re: heretics
ringo writes:

There is no reason to pay attention to it because we know its fiction.

You have concluded it is fiction. I disagree. My point though is that even if it is fiction they believed it to to historically accurate.

ringo writes:


Again, whether or not they believed it was true is irrelevant. Our own conclusions should be based only on facts. It could be true even if they thought it was fiction - or it could be false even if they thought it was true.

Of course it is relevamt. If they are knowlingly writing fiction then we have no conclusion to draw. From the texts it is clear that they believed what they were writing so we can accept them as wrong or accurate to whatever degree we like.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 829 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 12:56 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 832 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 1:30 PM GDR has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 832 of 882 (835583)
06-25-2018 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 831 by GDR
06-25-2018 1:15 PM


Re: heretics
GDR writes:

You have concluded it is fiction. I disagree.


It isn't a matter of opinion. There isn't enough evidence to conclude that it is historical fact. Fiction is the default conclusion.

GDR writes:

If they are knowlingly writing fiction then we have no conclusion to draw.


On the contrary, we always have a conclusion to draw, independent of the claims and/or beliefs of the authors.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 831 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 1:15 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 835 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 1:56 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 833 of 882 (835584)
06-25-2018 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 830 by GDR
06-25-2018 1:09 PM


Re: heretics
GDR writes:

There were numerous messianic movements over roughly a 200 year period. In virtually all, if not all, cases the messianic leaders were put to death and that was the end of the movement. In many of the cases the messianic figures actually had varying degrees of success in that they actually held some degree of power.

[…]

Here was a messianic figure who achieved nothing of what was expected of a messiah and was put to death in the most shameful way possible, with his followers all bailing out and yet they come back and dedicate their lives to following him. Something happened to cause this turn around and they have given an account of what that something was.

You're making my point for me. If you can kill a messiah, he's not the messiah. It's the ressurection that 'proves' the messiah. Inventing a resurrection was absolutely necessary for the thing to work.

The problem, of course, is that he was supposed to come back again quite quickly in all his glory but they couldn't pull that trick off could they? He disappeared forever. Almost as though he'd died just like every other failed messiah.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 1:09 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 834 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 1:50 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4557
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 834 of 882 (835586)
06-25-2018 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 833 by Tangle
06-25-2018 1:35 PM


Re: heretics
Tangle writes:

You're making my point for me. If you can kill a messiah, he's not the messiah. It's the ressurection that 'proves' the messiah.

Absolutely. The thing is though that the messiah was not expected to be in any way divine. A messiah was expected to be a human figure that would lead them against their enemies, defeat them and rebuild the temple. Also, if they were going to make up a resurrection story they wouldn't have had Him barbecuing fish or doing the other human like things that He did.

There is also no clear motivation of why they would do this. They never really understood His message until after the resurrection. Even after that, in the 1st chapter of Acts they are still asking about when He is going to restore Israel as a regional power.

They had already assumed He was a failed messaih after the crucifixion. Why would they want to start it up again? It put them at odds with most of their friends and family. Do you really think they would do this for a lie?

Tangle writes:

The problem, of course, is that he was supposed to come back again quite quickly in all his glory but they couldn't pull that trick off could they? He disappeared forever. Almost as though he'd died just like every other failed messiah.

If I get a chance I'll answer this in the current thread on the subject.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 833 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2018 1:35 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 837 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2018 2:06 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4557
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 835 of 882 (835587)
06-25-2018 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 832 by ringo
06-25-2018 1:30 PM


Re: heretics
ringo writes:

It isn't a matter of opinion. There isn't enough evidence to conclude that it is historical fact.

There is for me.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 1:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 836 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 2:05 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 836 of 882 (835588)
06-25-2018 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 835 by GDR
06-25-2018 1:56 PM


Re: heretics
GDR writes:

There is for me.


History is not a matter of opinion. You can have your own opinion on whether an event really happened or not but don't pretend that your opinion "makes sense" and that the default conclusion is "nonsense".

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 835 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 1:56 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 837 of 882 (835589)
06-25-2018 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 834 by GDR
06-25-2018 1:50 PM


Re: heretics
GDR writes:

Absolutely. The thing is though that the messiah was not expected to be in any way divine. A messiah was expected to be a human figure that would lead them against their enemies, defeat them and rebuild the temple.

Right, and not perform strings of miracles then?

Also, if they were going to make up a resurrection story they wouldn't have had Him barbecuing fish or doing the other human like things that He did.

Why on earth not? It's all part of the story.

They had already assumed He was a failed messaih after the crucifixion.

So they created the ressurection myth to fix the problem.

Why would they want to start it up again? It put them at odds with most of their friends and family. Do you really think they would do this for a lie?

It doesn't have to be a lie, it could be something they believed to be true. Or just something they wanted to believe was true. Or it could just be a lie that they used to carry on with their beliefs. There's any number of ways to spin it. The very least likely being that it actually happened.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 834 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 1:50 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 842 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 7:14 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11447
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 838 of 882 (835590)
06-25-2018 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 829 by ringo
06-25-2018 12:56 PM


Re: heretics
GDR writes:

Paul himself spent the bulk of the rest of his life suffering long stretches of imprisonment, numerous beatings and eventually death to support his beliefs.


Tangle writes:

So what? He believed his own story. There are people blowing themselves (up) for their mistaken beliefs every day. It's a commonplace.

And yet none of these people gain any credibility beyond their most immediate community--even in an age of mass communication. Paul went on to write several books about it and the belief caught on. Scholars have dissected the story in numerous ways and wrote entire books themselves on it. You may argue that the reason is that the product is easily and successfully marketed, but my point is that you don't see any modern martyrs anywhere approaching the level of notoriety.

There is no conclusive evidence that the resurrection never happened either. There is support both for and against...and note that these book writers are also marketing ideas.

ringo writes:

There is no reason to pay attention to it because we know its fiction.

*we* have arrived at no such consensus. you simply jumped on a convenient bandwagon...but it's hardly the only one.
ringo writes:

Our own conclusions should be based only on facts.

Ask yourself what facts you have. Where did you get them? What reasons do you have for accepting them?

I will admit that I accept an appeal to popularity, but I have had personal experiences also.

You've never had a need for religion, whereas I have. You have always liked being independent of authority and free willed. I have needed a friendly supportive authority figure.

Perhaps it is why we are on opposite sides of the fence in this ongoing debate.

And perhaps the legend still exists because many people need what I need. Far fewer need what you need.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 829 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 12:56 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 839 by ringo, posted 06-25-2018 3:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 839 of 882 (835591)
06-25-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 838 by Phat
06-25-2018 3:18 PM


Re: heretics
Phat writes:

*we* have arrived at no such consensus.


Yes we have. Resurrections don't happen.

Phat writes:

you simply jumped on a convenient bandwagon...but it's hardly the only one.


You're the one on the religious bandwagon - and you're right that there's a whole parade of them.

Phat writes:

Ask yourself what facts you have. Where did you get them? What reasons do you have for accepting them?


We all have the same facts. The difference is that you choose to ignore the facts that don't fit your beliefs and to augment the facts with fiction.

Phat writes:

And perhaps the legend still exists because many people need what I need.


That's exactly it. People need - or think they need - a crutch, so the legend continues. The perceived need does not make the legend true. And the lack of need by some of us calls into question whether the need you perceive is real. Maybe it's time for you to rise, take up thy bed and walk.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 838 by Phat, posted 06-25-2018 3:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30079
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 840 of 882 (835599)
06-25-2018 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 822 by Tangle
06-25-2018 3:22 AM


"This generation shall not pass away..."
There is a problem with the word "generation" in that in Jesus' day it was not always used in the same sense we use it. It is often used to refer to a whole tribe of people, those descended from an identifiable forbear, such as the Jews (or even a class within the Jews perhaps who share an ideology, such as the believers in Christ or the Pharisees who are called a "generation of vipers" and so on). This use occurs in many places but one that comes to mind is Noah's being described as "perfect in his generations," which suggests his progeny extended into the future. (I see from the reference I give below that it can also refer to his practice of righteousness, but then I wonder why the plural).

Some also interpret this passage to be Jesus' referring to the generation alive at the time of the events He's prophesying. I don't think this works very well for a number of reasons but the idea is that He's been talking exclusively about future events and the phrase occurs in that context, but also He can't mean the present generation because He's referring to so many events they couldn't all occur within one generation in the sense we use it. Wars and rumors of wars, famines and pestilences. There COULD be a lot of those in one short generation but it doesn't seem like the likely context.

This online Bible Dictionary interprets "generation" in Jesus' discourse to refer to those present at the time, but it also gives other ways the term is often used:

Generation [S]
Genesis 2:4 , "These are the generations," means the "history." 5:1 , "The book of the generations," means a family register, or history of Adam 37:2 , "The generations of Jacob" = the history of Jacob and his descendants 7:1 , "In this generation" = in this age. Psalms 49:19 , "The generation of his fathers" = the dwelling of his fathers, i.e., the grave. Psalms 73:15 , "The generation of thy children" = the contemporary race. Isaiah 53:8 , "Who shall declare his generation?" = His manner of life who shall declare? or rather = His race, posterity, shall be so numerous that no one shall be able to declare it.

In Matthew 1:17 , the word means a succession or series of persons from the same stock. Matthew 3:7 , "Generation of vipers" = brood of vipers 24:34 , "This generation" = the persons then living contemporary with Christ. 1 Peter 2:9 , "A chosen generation" = a chosen people.

The Hebrews seem to have reckoned time by the generation. In the time of Abraham a generation was an hundred years, thus: Genesis 15:16 , "In the fourth generation" = in four hundred years (Compare verse 13 and Exodus 12:40 ). In Deuteronomy 1:35 and 2:14 a generation is a period of thirty-eight years.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 822 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2018 3:22 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 841 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2018 7:13 PM Faith has responded

    
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