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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6341
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 841 of 882 (835603)
06-25-2018 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 840 by Faith
06-25-2018 6:09 PM


Re: "This generation shall not pass away..."
Faith writes:

There is a problem with the word "generation"

Only for you and your beliefs. Obviously it's necessary for you to change the meaning of a word that makes the entire Christian belief system a nonsense.

Unfortunately for you it doesn't matter what liberties you take with the meaning of words, it's clear that everyone thought the second coming was soon - just like you. And just like you, they were wrong.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 840 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 6:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 845 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 8:01 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4608
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 842 of 882 (835604)
06-25-2018 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 837 by Tangle
06-25-2018 2:06 PM


Re: heretics
GDR writes:


Absolutely. The thing is though that the messiah was not expected to be in any way divine. A messiah was expected to be a human figure that would lead them against their enemies, defeat them and rebuild the temple.

Tangle writes:

Right, and not perform strings of miracles then?


If I were to pray to have water turned into wine and it happened, (hasn't worked so far), it wouldn't be me performing the niracle but God working through me.
GDR writes:

Also, if they were going to make up a resurrection story they wouldn't have had Him barbecuing fish or doing the other human like things that He did.

Tangle writes:

Why on earth not? It's all part of the story.

Firstly there is no reasonable motive for them to do that, but also they would have gone with something more Jewish like in the story of the transfiguration.
Tangle writes:

So they created the resurrection myth to fix the problem.

Why on earth would they do that. If Jesus simply died with nothing further happening it would simply be the end of the story. They would have as the Jews did in other cases, gone on to another messiah who would hopefully get the job done in the manner that they had understood. Jesus did fulfill the establishment of the Kingdom but it was a world wide kingdom instead of a specified piece of real estate. He also rebuilt the Temple but it was in the hearts of those who His followers instead of a physical building. Not what they were expecting or looking for.

Tangle writes:

It doesn't have to be a lie, it could be something they believed to be true. Or just something they wanted to believe was true. Or it could just be a lie that they used to carry on with their beliefs. There's any number of ways to spin it. The very least likely being that it actually happened.

As an atheist that is obviously correct. As a theist I see the latter as being most likely. It pretty much depends on our starting point.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 837 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2018 2:06 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 843 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2018 7:28 PM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6341
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 843 of 882 (835605)
06-25-2018 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 842 by GDR
06-25-2018 7:14 PM


Re: heretics
GDR writes:

If I were to pray to have water turned into wine and it happened, (hasn't worked so far), it wouldn't be me performing the niracle but God working through me.

Now that is a truly crazy thing to say. Pretty obviously you performed the miracle. And did it several other times too - raising dead, feeding thousands without a supermarket erc. Sure you can claim it ain't me but it sure looks like it.

Firstly there is no reasonable motive for them to do that,

You mean that these people didn't believe anymore? When the modern-day prophets predict the end times but they don't happen, they don't jusy give up, they carry on and make all sorts of excuses about why. They have every motive to continue, they're deluded, just like Faith. You think she's ever going to be persuaded by amything at all? Of course not.

It pretty much depends on our starting point.

No it doesn't, it only depends on the evidence. You simply substitute an irrational belief for evidence.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 842 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 7:14 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 844 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 7:49 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4608
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 844 of 882 (835606)
06-25-2018 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 843 by Tangle
06-25-2018 7:28 PM


Re: heretics
Tangle writes:

Now that is a truly crazy thing to say. Pretty obviously you performed the miracle.

Even the charlatans that cook up fake healings say that it is God using them as a vessel or something similar.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2018 7:28 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 847 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 2:56 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 845 of 882 (835607)
06-25-2018 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 841 by Tangle
06-25-2018 7:13 PM


Re: "This generation shall not pass away..."
Three things for now:

First, it is objective fact that the word "generation" had different meanings, I didn't invent that. The question is which applied.

Second, Jesus' prophecy points in part to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70, for instance that no stone would be left standing upon another, and the warning to those in Judea to flee to the mountains, anticipating the armies of Rome under Titus. And that specific generation did indeed witness all that.

The problem is that the passage also refers to the second coming as well, and that's what needs sorting out.

Third, we know He is coming again no matter what timing is implied in that particular discourse, which means His coming is yet future. There are too many other passages that make that clear.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 841 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2018 7:13 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 846 by jar, posted 06-25-2018 8:17 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 846 of 882 (835608)
06-25-2018 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 845 by Faith
06-25-2018 8:01 PM


Re: "This generation shall not pass away..."
Yet until the return AND establishment of a new Kingdom Jesus is still just a failed Messiah.

Remember, Jesus was never a Christian but rather a Jew.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 845 by Faith, posted 06-25-2018 8:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6341
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 847 of 882 (835614)
06-26-2018 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 844 by GDR
06-25-2018 7:49 PM


Re: heretics
GDR writes:

Even the charlatans that cook up fake healings say that it is God using them as a vessel or something similar.

Charlatans tell lies. Who knew?

In the stories when JC performed his miracles, they didn't happen randomly as he was passing alon minding his own business, he made the decisions to raise the dead, create the wine, feed the crowds etc.

It wasn't something that just happened without his knowledge or desire to do it. And it wasn't something that anyone else could do. *He* did it. Or so the story goes.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 844 by GDR, posted 06-25-2018 7:49 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 848 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 3:03 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 848 of 882 (835616)
06-26-2018 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 847 by Tangle
06-26-2018 2:56 AM


Re: heretics
It wasn't something that just happened without his knowledge or desire to do it. And it wasn't something that anyone else could do. *He* did it. Or so the story goes.

Is this supposed to be an answer to the idea that He did it through God's power? If so it's wildly wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 847 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 2:56 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 849 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 3:13 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6341
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 849 of 882 (835617)
06-26-2018 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 848 by Faith
06-26-2018 3:03 AM


Re: heretics
Faith writes:

Is this supposed to be an answer to the idea that He did it through God's power? If so it's wildly wrong.

JC did them. Whether he used the power given to him by god, the White Witch of Gondor or the power of a magic ring, the story is that he did them.

ABE. Maybe an analogy that you're fond of will help. Guns don't kill people; people kill people.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 848 by Faith, posted 06-26-2018 3:03 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 850 by Faith, posted 06-27-2018 7:57 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 850 of 882 (835657)
06-27-2018 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 849 by Tangle
06-26-2018 3:13 AM


Re: heretics
Nobody said Jesus didn't do them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 849 by Tangle, posted 06-26-2018 3:13 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 851 by Phat, posted 06-27-2018 8:41 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 852 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2018 10:38 AM Faith has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11563
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 851 of 882 (835658)
06-27-2018 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 850 by Faith
06-27-2018 7:57 AM


Richard Carrier Refuted
There are always multiple sides to any argument, and I found this one quite well done: Refutation Of Richard Carrier

The "blue fairy" analogy is priceless!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 850 by Faith, posted 06-27-2018 7:57 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6341
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 852 of 882 (835661)
06-27-2018 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 850 by Faith
06-27-2018 7:57 AM


Re: heretics
Faith writes:

Nobody said Jesus didn't do them.

Yes they did.

GDR writes:

If I were to pray to have water turned into wine and it happened, (hasn't worked so far), it wouldn't be me performing the niracle but God working through me.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 850 by Faith, posted 06-27-2018 7:57 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 853 by Faith, posted 06-27-2018 1:26 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 853 of 882 (835664)
06-27-2018 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 852 by Tangle
06-27-2018 10:38 AM


Re: heretics
Tangle writes:

GDR writes:

If I were to pray to have water turned into wine and it happened, (hasn't worked so far), it wouldn't be me performing the niracle but God working through me.

Yes they did

Even you must know he can't possibly have meant Jesus had no part in it or that he himself would have had no part in the miracle he postulated. Maybe he will come along and correct me but, although his wording is unfortunate, when we speak of God working through us we are doing the actions but God is supplying the power. The missionary preaches the gospel but if the person converts it is God's power that has delivered the message to his heart. The disciple tells the paralyzed man to get up because he's healed, but it's God's power working through the disciple that did the healing. Jesus told the boy to distribute the bread and fish but it was God's power working in Jesus that multipled the food for the crowd.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 852 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2018 10:38 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 854 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2018 1:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6341
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 854 of 882 (835665)
06-27-2018 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 853 by Faith
06-27-2018 1:26 PM


Re: heretics
Faith writes:

Even you must know he can't possibly have meant Jesus had no part in it or that he himself would have had no part in the miracle he postulated. Maybe he will come along and correct me but, although his wording is unfortunate, when we speak of God working through us we are doing the actions but God is supplying the power.

These word acrobatics only occurs because you guys try to hold impossible contradictions together as though they were totally sensible.

The 'logical’ position is that when JC performs a miracle - note that that is what we say - it's him that's doing it with his own powers.
But the problem is, he's only a mortal man that will eventually die like everyone else, so there has to be another word game that can be played that allowshim to act like a god whilst not being one. I know, we'll say that another god is doing it through him. Pure Hollywood.

But also,he's not a puppet, he's a man making his own choices...yeh, right. That all makes total sense.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 853 by Faith, posted 06-27-2018 1:26 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 855 by Phat, posted 06-27-2018 2:39 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11563
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 855 of 882 (835668)
06-27-2018 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 854 by Tangle
06-27-2018 1:40 PM


Scriptural Acrobatics
Tangle writes:

The 'logical’ position is that when JC performs a miracle - note that that is what we say - it's him that's doing it with his own powers.


It would appear that way to any observer. Some scriptures state otherwise, however:
John 5:19-23 writes:

Then answered Jesus and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do: for what things soever he does, these also does the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that himself does: and he will show him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises up the dead, and vivifies them; even so the Son vivifies whom he will. 22 For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son: 23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which has sent him.(...)John 14:10...Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

Of course, honest skeptics such as yourself are unimpressed with scripture as a supporting argument. One side would assert that the Gospel of John is an authentic explanation, whereas the other side would simply claim that John was written, edited, and redacted by men with differing motives and ideologies from the other three Gospel accounts. Additionally, you would claim that human understanding has evolved quite a bit from when these original accounts were written. I did find an interesting review of the Gospel of John online, however. In A Nutshell...Shmoop articles are authored by teachers (high school or college level), Ph.D. and master's students (e.g., Stanford, Harvard, and Yale). They base the articles on “credible academic sources” and then cite the source. Shmoop also provides citations for students...definitely not written by conservative apologists!

But the problem is, he's only a mortal man that will eventually die like everyone else, so there has to be another word game that can be played that allows him to act like a god whilst not being one. I know, we'll say that another god is doing it through him. Pure Hollywood.
What difference would it make if the vessel died or not?

But also, he's not a puppet, he's a man making his own choices...yeh, right. That all makes total sense.
Is it so hard to grasp that the human allowed God to work through him?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 854 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2018 1:40 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 856 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2018 3:04 PM Phat has responded

  
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