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Author Topic:   Religion or Science - How do they compare?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6238
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 856 of 882 (835670)
06-27-2018 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 855 by Phat
06-27-2018 2:39 PM


Re: Scriptural Acrobatics
Phat writes:

It would appear that way to any observer. Some scriptures state otherwise, however:

And, as you say, I really don't care what's written in your book or what apologists or phd students say about what's written in it. Until and unless the book itself can be shown to be a verified factual account of real history, it's just another book of fiction, like all the rest.

What difference would it make if the vessel died or not?

If he hadn't died and was still walking around, are you sure that wouldn't make a difference? I reckon it might. Just a bit.

Is it so hard to grasp that the human allowed God to work through him?

It's not hard to grasp at all, I'm just pointing out that it's a necessary plot device - a McGuffin - because JC turned out to be mortal.

If this wasn't fiction, JC would simply be the god and then everything would be straightforward and unambiguous. Why make it all so difficult, convoluted and unbelievable? The point of the whole thing was apparently to save the world; there are a thousand better ways to do it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 855 by Phat, posted 06-27-2018 2:39 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 857 by Phat, posted 06-27-2018 3:37 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 859 by Faith, posted 06-28-2018 9:49 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 857 of 882 (835671)
06-27-2018 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 856 by Tangle
06-27-2018 3:04 PM


Re: Scriptural Acrobatics
The point of the whole thing was apparently to save the world; there are a thousand better ways to do it.
Point taken. I need to work on myself and not worry so much about the poor lost masses..because only if I am healthy and sound can I begin to help them anyway...apart from feeding them and handing out spare change ala ringo.

I agree with you that religious dogma has not exactly helped the world exclusively as there are many problems associated with it...but there has been some good come of it also. Perhaps we can begin to use some of your thousand better ways...where do we start?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 856 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2018 3:04 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 858 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2018 4:36 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6238
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 858 of 882 (835677)
06-27-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 857 by Phat
06-27-2018 3:37 PM


Re: Scriptural Acrobatics
Phat writes:

Perhaps we can begin to use some of your thousand better ways...where do we start?

We're doing ok, there's nothing wrong with do as you would be done by and love your neighbour. That's all you need.

But the point was that if your god really felt the need to intervene to help us, he chose a truly ridiculous way of doing it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 857 by Phat, posted 06-27-2018 3:37 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 859 of 882 (835699)
06-28-2018 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 856 by Tangle
06-27-2018 3:04 PM


Re: Scriptural Acrobatics
And, as you say, I really don't care what's written in your book or what apologists or phd students say about what's written in it. Until and unless the book itself can be shown to be a verified factual account of real history, it's just another book of fiction, like all the rest.

There are so many references in scripture to real historical people and events I would think that might cause you to consider it historical. I suppose you just figure the writers stuck in some facts to make it seem real though, right?

I was just impressed with this fact as I've been participating on the thread about the end times and the book of Daniel which is full of references to real historical facts, real kings of real empires and so on. But then I realize that someone with a determination to view it as fiction will find a way to view it as fiction anyway. Like the "scholars" who refuse to believe in prophecy and since Daniel is full of real fulfilled prophecy about real times and places they just mangle the text and make Daniel a liar to suit their prejudices by insisting it wasn't written when he says he wrote it, although historically that's the time he lived in, oh well, they put the prophecies after the actual events, take Daniel out of his own time and somehow or other pretend he didn't live when we know he lived and those weren't real prophecies and so on and so forth. It takes so much ingenuity to turn the realities of scripture into fiction that ought to make anyone appreciate how unlikely it is any of the ordinary men who followed Jesus could have written fiction. Not to mention of course that they had no motive for it, which GDR has been writing about, but that doesn't mean anything to you either. So the actual historical reality of the scriptures which is apparent to a simple honest reader is utterly lost in a welter of prejudices. Oh well.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 856 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2018 3:04 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 860 by ringo, posted 06-28-2018 11:57 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 861 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2018 12:13 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 860 of 882 (835702)
06-28-2018 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 859 by Faith
06-28-2018 9:49 AM


Re: Scriptural Acrobatics
Faith writes:

There are so many references in scripture to real historical people and events I would think that might cause you to consider it historical. I suppose you just figure the writers stuck in some facts to make it seem real though, right?


That's what Ian Fleming did with the James Bond stories.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 859 by Faith, posted 06-28-2018 9:49 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6238
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 861 of 882 (835703)
06-28-2018 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 859 by Faith
06-28-2018 9:49 AM


Re: Scriptural Acrobatics
Faith writes:

There are so many references in scripture to real historical people and events I would think that might cause you to consider it historical. I suppose you just figure the writers stuck in some facts to make it seem real though, right?

The writers wrote about the times they were in and the things that they were told. What else would you expect? There is nothing in the bible that couldn't have been known by the people at the time.

It takes so much ingenuity to turn the realities of scripture into fiction that ought to make anyone appreciate how unlikely it is any of the ordinary men who followed Jesus could have written fiction.

It takes virtually no effort at all. Try reading the book of Mormon.

Not to mention of course that they had no motive for it, which GDR has been writing about, but that doesn't mean anything to you either.

The motive is clear and obvious and has been explained many times.

What was the motive for writing the Book of Mormon?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 859 by Faith, posted 06-28-2018 9:49 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 862 by Faith, posted 06-28-2018 8:41 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30028
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 862 of 882 (835709)
06-28-2018 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 861 by Tangle
06-28-2018 12:13 PM


Re: Scriptural Acrobatics
As I understand it the Book of Mormon already existed as a piece of very bad fiction before Joseph Smith decided to baptize it into his new religion of Mormonism. It wasn't written by Mormon believers. Joseph Smith was an experienced con man who had a visit from a fallen angel named Moroni who told him Christianity was false, much as many of you here are doing, and concocted a whole religion out of total fiction, some nonexistent golden plates on top of this bogus oiece of writing and made good the adage that there's a sucker born every minute. Your attempt to make a comparison with the history of Christianity comes from your own prejudice. Four separate accounts of the gospel were written that agree with each other on all major points and they read like history, not fiction..

The disciples had no motivation whatever. Their Mesiah had died and they were poised to just disappear from the scene. It took a supernatural act from heaven to restore their faith in Jesus and then they wrote down their accounts simply and honestly.

It takes deviousness and cleverness to write fiction especially for the purpose of deceiving people. They were ready to give up their Messiah so they had no motive, and the cleverness it would take to get all the parts together in a believable wa just doesn't describe their characters. I'm watching PaulK try to make use of this kind of deviousness and cleverness on the part of modern scholars to turn the true accounts of prophecy in the book of Daniel into a fiction. His interpretation of the prophecies reduces them to a ridiculous triviality that no scribe would have bothered to write down, prophecies pointing to unknown people as "messiah" although the entire history of the OT points to the one Messiah the Prince who saves His people from their sins. The book of Daniel is glorious true prophecy of real events of transcendent importance but he's reducing it all to something even a local tribe would ignore.

All the "scholars" can accomplish is mangling historical contexts, making Daniel into a liar every time he says where he was when a certain vision came to him, removing him from the context of his service to the various kings of Babylon and Medea and Persia. You can't fictionalize reality without making a mess of it unless you are a novelistic genius and have decades to work on it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2018 12:13 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 863 by PaulK, posted 06-29-2018 12:46 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 864 by Tangle, posted 06-29-2018 3:24 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14488
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 863 of 882 (835713)
06-29-2018 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 862 by Faith
06-28-2018 8:41 PM


Re: Scriptural Acrobatics
I was going to stay out of this but Faith just had to drag me into it.

quote:

It takes deviousness and cleverness to write fiction especially for the purpose of deceiving people. They were ready to give up their Messiah so they had no motive, and the cleverness it would take to get all the parts together in a believable wa just doesn't describe their characters. I'm watching PaulK try to make use of this kind of deviousness and cleverness on the part of modern scholars to turn the true accounts of prophecy in the book of Daniel into a fiction

There is nothing devious in honest scholarship. You are the one who has told obvious falsehoods, although they are so obvious they can hardly be called devious.

quote:

His interpretation of the prophecies reduces them to a ridiculous triviality that no scribe would have bothered to write down, prophecies pointing to unknown people as "messiah" although the entire history of the OT points to the one Messiah the Prince who saves His people from their sins

Because the coming of God to redeem His people and set up an eternal kingdom is a mere triviality to you. It didn’t happen, but that doesn’t make it trivial to the writer or to the readers.

You just can’t stand the fact that the text doesn’t say what you want it to.

quote:

All the "scholars" can accomplish is mangling historical contexts, making Daniel into a liar every time he says where he was when a certain vision came to him, removing him from the context of his service to the various kings of Babylon and Medea and Persia. You can't fictionalize reality without making a mess of it unless you are a novelistic genius and have decades to work on it.

Of course my current series of posts says nothing about when the book was written or by who. But the author of Daniel didn’t do that great a job. He’d hardly need to know more than the succession of the kings and a few scraps of historical information. And he didn’t even manage to get it right there, as shown by the absence of Nabonidus. Daniel is not a long book and much of it is prophecy or stories that are unconfirmed by history. Daniel himself, for all his supposed importance is invisible to history - even in the Bible, there is but one possible reference to him, outside of the book of Daniel, and that seems to be a reference to someone who would have lived much earlier.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 862 by Faith, posted 06-28-2018 8:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6238
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 864 of 882 (835717)
06-29-2018 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 862 by Faith
06-28-2018 8:41 PM


Re: Scriptural Acrobatics
Faith writes:

Your attempt to make a comparison with the history of Christianity comes from your own prejudice.

I'm certainly prejudiced against fiction being worshipped as truth. Despite the fact that Mormonism is the modern invention of a con man it has 15 million followers. I could just as easily point to the Church of Scientology. Another recent and very obvious fraud, yet people still need to believe it.

People invent religions for others to follow for all sorts of reasons and once invented they follow a life of their own driven by the irrationality of its believers.

Yours is just another one of thousands of others.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 862 by Faith, posted 06-28-2018 8:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 865 by Phat, posted 06-29-2018 11:44 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 865 of 882 (835728)
06-29-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 864 by Tangle
06-29-2018 3:24 AM


Re: Scriptural Acrobatics
tangle writes:

I'm certainly prejudiced against fiction being worshipped as truth.

We agree there.
Tangle writes:

People invent religions for others to follow for all sorts of reasons and once invented they follow a life of their own driven by the irrationality of its believers.

Yours is just another one of thousands of others.

You've lumped all of them together! How do you know that one is just like another? How do you know that all religions were invented?
What does belief in God have to do with religion by definition anyway?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by Tangle, posted 06-29-2018 3:24 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 866 by ringo, posted 06-29-2018 11:52 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 867 by Tangle, posted 06-29-2018 1:23 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 866 of 882 (835730)
06-29-2018 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 865 by Phat
06-29-2018 11:44 AM


Re: Scriptural Acrobatics
Phat writes:

You've lumped all of them together!


Yes!

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 865 by Phat, posted 06-29-2018 11:44 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6238
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 867 of 882 (835732)
06-29-2018 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 865 by Phat
06-29-2018 11:44 AM


Re: Scriptural Acrobatics
Phat writes:

You've lumped all of them together!

Yes Phat, I did exactly that.

How do you know that one is just like another?

They're only like each other in that they're all human inventions. After that they're a diverse and crazy bunch of ideas and beliefs.

How do you know that all religions were invented?

Why do you think that your religion is special? To use the cliche, you also believe that all religions are inventions. Except one. The one that by a total accident of birth happens to the one your parents and your community believe in. Amazing coincidence eh?

What does belief in God have to do with religion by definition anyway?

Well, for a start you can't have a religion without a belief in god. It's kind of definitional.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 865 by Phat, posted 06-29-2018 11:44 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 868 by Phat, posted 06-29-2018 2:18 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 868 of 882 (835734)
06-29-2018 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 867 by Tangle
06-29-2018 1:23 PM


I wish I was special...so very special
Why do you think that your religion is special?
I don't. I DO think that the God I worship is special, though.
To use the cliche, you also believe that all religions are inventions. Except one.
Again, I believe that all gods are inventions and/or demons. Except One.
I agree with jar in that humans are likely wrong about describing God. Where I disagree is that I believe that God,if God exists is capable of reaching us. As to whether or not He chooses to do so I see no reason why we would be a waste of His time. Do you? (Hypothetically)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 867 by Tangle, posted 06-29-2018 1:23 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 869 by jar, posted 06-29-2018 2:59 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 870 by ringo, posted 06-29-2018 3:07 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 871 by Tangle, posted 06-29-2018 3:55 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 872 by GDR, posted 07-05-2018 8:02 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 869 of 882 (835735)
06-29-2018 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 868 by Phat
06-29-2018 2:18 PM


Re: I wish I was special...so very special
Phat writes:

Where I disagree is that I believe that God,if God exists is capable of reaching us.

How?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 868 by Phat, posted 06-29-2018 2:18 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 870 of 882 (835736)
06-29-2018 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 868 by Phat
06-29-2018 2:18 PM


Re: I wish I was special...so very special
Phat writes:

Again, I believe that all gods are inventions and/or demons. Except One.


Why did you just happen to be born into the one society on earth that believes in the One True God? Why isn't it more likely that your God is no truer than the others?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 868 by Phat, posted 06-29-2018 2:18 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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