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Author Topic:   An attempt to let Flood supporters explain how things were created
Phat
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Posts: 11583
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 16 of 70 (832560)
05-05-2018 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
05-05-2018 8:33 AM


Re: Bump!
you are really obsessed with forcing believers into the ring of logic, reason, and reality....I doubt she will take the bait.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 17 of 70 (832563)
05-05-2018 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
05-05-2018 11:37 AM


Re: Bump!
It's not trying to force anyone into logic, reason or reality; it's the fact that reality ultimately wins 100% of the time.

If supporters of one of the Biblical Flood stories expect anyone to consider a Biblical Flood as reality they MUST support that position by showing how the Biblical Flood produced the reality that exists.

They assert that some Biblical Flood happened.

They have NEVER been able to provide a model, method, mechanism, process or procedure that can explain the reality that exists.

This is their chance. If they do not take it I will simply refer any claims they make back to this thread.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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jar
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Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 18 of 70 (832600)
05-05-2018 5:48 PM


Adding another five examples of reality that needs explaining.
Since it seems that those who believe there was some Biblical Flood have not presented a model, method mechanism, process or procedure that would allow a flood to create the evidence shown so far; maybe they will do better with some other examples.


  1. This fossil sand dune seen in this image:

  2. Half Dome:

  3. Banded Ironstone:

  4. Layered Erratic Rocks:

  5. The Layered Chalk Beds of Kansas:

Once these five small examples are explained then we can return to the first examples or move on to another set of evidence that needs a floodist explanation.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 19 of 70 (832643)
05-07-2018 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
04-30-2018 11:33 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Initiate The Explanations
Hi jar

jar writes:

Not at all. Faith can simply say "GodDidIt" or "Bubblegum" or "It was a miracle".

But it is up to those who support the Biblical Flood nonsense to explain "How the Flud Did It".

What if you believe there was a flood but you don't believe the flood did it.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 04-30-2018 11:33 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
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Posts: 6356
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 20 of 70 (832644)
05-07-2018 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ICANT
05-07-2018 12:12 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Initiate The Explanations
ICANT writes:

What if you believe there was a flood but you don't believe the flood did it.

Then you have to show us the physical evidence that a recent global flood would leave behind.

We should see the markers in geological, archaeological and genetic record. But we don't.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 21 of 70 (832648)
05-07-2018 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ICANT
05-07-2018 12:12 AM


There is no issue with beliefs.
Then simply say "You believe there was a world-wide flood during the time humans existed." Just don't expect anyone else to believe that unless you can present actual evidence beyond the contradictory versions of the flood found in the Bible stories.

There is no problem with believing there was such a flood, or in fairies or gremlins or unicorns or things that go bump in the night.

The issue is when someone claims such things are not simply beliefs but instead factual.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Faith
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Posts: 30167
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 22 of 70 (832651)
05-07-2018 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
05-07-2018 8:27 AM


Re: There is no issue with beliefs.
This kneejerk definition of the word "belief" with "imaginary" is false both logically and linguistically.
This message is a reply to:
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jar
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Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 23 of 70 (832652)
05-07-2018 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
05-07-2018 10:05 AM


Re: There is no issue with beliefs.
Faith writes:

This kneejerk definition of the word "belief" with "imaginary" is false both logically and linguistically.

Nonsense.

Unless someone can provided evidence of an item believed to exist actual existence in reality it remains simply a belief.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 70 (832659)
05-07-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
05-07-2018 10:14 AM


Re: There is no issue with beliefs.
Unless someone can provided evidence of an item believed to exist actual existence in reality it remains simply a belief.

In the case of some beliefs, like the Flood, the beliefs are held despite the knowledge of the evidence to the contrary. I think that is plenty of reason to call the belief false even if you apply the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" canard.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


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ringo
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Posts: 15746
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 25 of 70 (832662)
05-07-2018 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
05-07-2018 10:05 AM


Re: There is no issue with beliefs.
Faith writes:

This kneejerk definition of the word "belief" with "imaginary" is false both logically and linguistically.


The logic is pretty simple: If we can't see it we can only imagine it.

I like the picture of the salt mine. Near where I live we have some salt lakes that are dry in a dry year and have a few inches of water in a wet year. You can actually see the layers of salt and silt accumulating from year to year. It would be hard to imagine that amount of salt accumulating in a short period of time.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 26 of 70 (832665)
05-07-2018 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by NoNukes
05-07-2018 12:08 PM


Re: There is no issue with beliefs.
NoNukes writes:

In the case of some beliefs, like the Flood, the beliefs are held despite the knowledge of the evidence to the contrary. I think that is plenty of reason to call the belief false even if you apply the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" canard.

That is true BUT that does not change the truth that the person might believe in the flood.

The belief itself is real even though the object of the belief is imaginary. In the case of the Biblical Flood the evidence is overwhelming that it is fictional.

The problem arises when they try to pretend that the belief is not imaginary. Once they try top insert the belief into reality they need to present evidence to support that reality.

Edited by jar, : fix attribution.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 27 of 70 (832687)
05-08-2018 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tangle
05-07-2018 2:32 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Initiate The Explanations
Hi Tangle

Tangle writes:

Then you have to show us the physical evidence that a recent global flood would leave behind.

What would you expect it to leave behind?
There was only one body of dry land with no known elevation above sea level.

The water rises and falls up to 53 feet every 12 hours in parts of the Bay of Fundy.

It hadn't washed it away yet.

If the land mass was all in one place and was relativity flat and you had that kind of rise of water the land mass would be covered in just a few hours. The tide would not go out the water would just rise until it reached 15 cubits above the highest point on the land mass. The water had 40 days to rise on the land. That would mean it did not have to rise too fast. When it returned it could take its time as it had over 300 days.

Then just over a hundred years later the earth was divided into the positions we observe today. So just what do you think you would find that looked like a world wide flood?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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 Message 20 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2018 2:32 AM Tangle has responded

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6356
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 28 of 70 (832688)
05-08-2018 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
05-08-2018 4:34 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Initiate The Explanations
ICANT writes:

What would you expect it to leave behind?

Well first off it's not for me to say; if you have no physical evidence that you can point me too why would I accept what you say? But if you actually accept that you have no evidence, thanks, that's me done.

Second I would expect to see evidence of such a massive and recent global event everywhere in the strata. But we don't see it. What we DO see are many local flood events.

Similarly, we'd expect to see a genetic bottleneck in every species of plant and animal on earth - we don't. Nor do we see any interuption in man's societies spanning the supposed time of this flood.

If the land mass was all in one place and was relativity flat and you had that kind of rise of water the land mass would be covered in just a few hours. The tide would not go out the water would just rise until it reached 15 cubits above the highest point on the land mass. The water had 40 days to rise on the land. That would mean it did not have to rise too fast. When it returned it could take its time as it had over 300 days.

IF you want to claim many miracles, then fine, believe this tosh if you must, but this is a science thread, where's you evidence for this nonsense?

Then just over a hundred years later the earth was divided into the positions we observe today. So just what do you think you would find that looked like a world wide flood?

There is no known mechanism for The earth's land masses to move at that speed. Moreover, had it done so, the earth would be reduced to a cinder. But I guess we're back with the miracle stuff?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ICANT, posted 05-08-2018 4:34 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 29 of 70 (832691)
05-08-2018 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
05-08-2018 4:34 AM


Please try to present information relative to the topic.
As usual and as expected you are once again simply making shit up and misrepresenting what is in the Bible.

You are also once again and as expected failing to provide the model, method, mechanism, process or procedure that would address the specific items in the order they are presented in the thread.

If you are totally incapable of following even the most basic instructions perhaps you should return to the non-science forums.

From the OP:

quote:
Maybe if we move really slowly and stick to only one piece of evidence at a time Faith or some other believer in a Biblical Flood can finally explain just how the flood do that.

I'd like to stick to only ten specific items and work through the list only moving to the next item after a workable model, method, mechanism, process or procedure that can be seen in action today has been presented to explain how the flood did that specific example.


If you wish to participate in this thread please begin by presenting the model, method, mechanism, process or procedure that explains the image in Item 1.

Edited by jar, : moderate annoyances


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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14174dm
Member
Posts: 141
From: Cincinnati OH
Joined: 10-12-2015
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 30 of 70 (832696)
05-08-2018 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
05-08-2018 4:34 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Initiate The Explanations
There was only one body of dry land with no known elevation above sea level.

Since the sediment at the Grand Canyon is over 5,000 ft and the Grand Staircase another 5,000 ft of sediment, the water had to be over 10,000 ft deep. So the water would have to rise 250 ft per day during the flood.

The Bay of Fundy is a very extreme example of tides. The normal range of tides is more like 3 ft IIRC. The range varies according to orientation and subsurface geography.


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