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Author Topic:   An attempt to let Flood supporters explain how things were created
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 31 of 70 (832705)
05-08-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
05-08-2018 6:55 AM


Re: Please try to present information relative to the topic.
This was interesting. Evidence Noah's Biblical Flood Happened, Says Robert Ballard

The only reason it interested me was due to the fact that scientists were involved as was ABC News. You likely would label it as infotainment.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 32 of 70 (832706)
05-08-2018 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
05-08-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Please try to present information relative to the topic.
No, I would label it as nonsense and utter misrepresentation of what the Bible says and so of interest only to the willfully ignorant.

What is describes is NOT a world-wide or even sudden event and no different than what is seen in coastal areas on both sides of the English Channel.

It also has absolutely NOTHING to contribute to this topic.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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ringo
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Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 33 of 70 (832707)
05-08-2018 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
05-08-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Please try to present information relative to the topic.
Phat writes:

This was interesting. Evidence Noah's Biblical Flood Happened, Says Robert Ballard


Ballard is looking for the origin of the Flood myth - i.e. evidence of A big flood, not a worldwide flood. Otherwise, he wouldn't have to go to Turkey to find it. A worldwide flood would leave evidence in his own back yard.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 34 of 70 (832709)
05-08-2018 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
05-08-2018 4:34 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Initiate The Explanations
ICANT writes:

quote:
What would you expect it to leave behind?

Not only the geological evidence of a flood but also the anthropological evidence. After all, multiple cultures were alive and leaving documentary evidence at the supposed time of the flood and none of them seem to have noticed that everybody died. There's a big pyramid in Egypt that was built before the supposed time of the flood and it doesn't have any water damage.

quote:
If the land mass was all in one place and was relativity flat

But we know that isn't the case. Mt. Everest was not a hillock 4500 years ago.

And there's still the problem of where did the water come from? There's only enough water in the atmosphere to cover the ground to an inch...which would then run off into the oceans and lakes and immediately leave dry land. There simply isn't enough water to cover the entire surface of the earth for days on end. How could there be? If there were, it would already be covered. Tidal sloshing might get you a few hours, but it isn't going to last.

And then you need to explain where it went because if there's enough to cover the earth, it has nowhere to go.

quote:
Then just over a hundred years later the earth was divided into the positions we observe today.

Releasing enough energy to literally melt the surface of the earth, boil off the oceans, and kill everything.

quote:
So just what do you think you would find that looked like a world wide flood?

Given what you've described? A barren wasteland with nothing alive on it.

If you want to say it was all magic, then just say it was all magic. Not enough water? God magicked it into existence. Where did it go? God magicked it away. Geography making it topologically impossible? God magicked everything. The moment you try to bring physics into it, you have to explain why there are no remnants of the physics.

But there's still the problem of the people. Cultures were thriving in Egypt, Asia, etc. and they show no interruption. You could try to push the flood back to pre-historic times, but that screws up the timeline with regard to human civilization. It'd be nice to see an explanation for that.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 70 (832729)
05-09-2018 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
05-08-2018 4:34 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Initiate The Explanations
If the land mass was all in one place and was relativity flat and you had that kind of rise of water the land mass would be covered in just a few hours. The tide would not go out the water would just rise until it reached 15 cubits above the highest point on the land mass.

Why are the tides at the Bay of Fundy nearly unique, ICANT? Is it because Fundy is the only place on earth with a topology similar to the "land mass all in one place and relatively flat" scenario that you describe for the entire earth? Or is there some other reason? Hint: The explanation for the tides at the Bay of Fundy is readily available to anyone who bothers to look.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 36 of 70 (832732)
05-09-2018 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by NoNukes
05-09-2018 8:28 AM


Creationists love to not reply on topic.
And I looked again, and the Bay of Fundy is not among the now ten specific items awaiting an explanation of how the flud do dat?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 37 of 70 (832747)
05-09-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
05-09-2018 8:57 AM


I dont support the flood, but like to discuss it
Phat writes:

This was interesting. Evidence Noah's Biblical Flood Happened, Says Robert Ballard


ringo writes:

Ballard is looking for the origin of the Flood myth - i.e. evidence of A big flood, not a worldwide flood. Otherwise, he wouldn't have to go to Turkey to find it. A worldwide flood would leave evidence in his own backyard.


jar writes:

What is described is NOT a worldwide or even sudden event and no different than what is seen in coastal areas on both sides of the English Channel.

It also has absolutely NOTHING to contribute to this topic.

I would respectfully disagree. You cant expect everyone (or perhaps anyone) to adhere strictly to your criteria of a model, method or means scenario. Granted the Bay Of Fundy is irrelevant. Any good topic has controversy. Otherwise, this topic will sit here in limbo with under 40 posts, gathering dust in the archives.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 05-09-2018 8:57 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 05-09-2018 11:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 38 of 70 (832749)
05-09-2018 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
05-09-2018 11:19 AM


Re: I dont support the flood, but like to discuss it
Phat writes:

Otherwise, this topic will sit here in limbo with under 40 posts, gathering dust in the archives.

Which is fine. It will stand as solid evidence that no one can support the reality of either Biblical Flood myth.

And I will point to it anytime anyone tries to assert that the Biblical Flood has any place in reality.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 05-09-2018 11:19 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 39 of 70 (832751)
05-09-2018 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
05-09-2018 11:43 AM


Re: I dont support the flood, but like to discuss it
Which is fine. It will stand as solid evidence that no one can support the reality of either Biblical Flood myth.

In particular, the Bay of Fundy portion of this thread is evidence of the inane stuff that some folks will say. I don't really know that it is necessary for the Bay of Fundy to have a Flood explanation. Surely even if there was a worldwide Flood 4500 years ago, some geological and topological features of the earth could have other explanations. But I do know that the Flood as described in Genesis does not have a "Bay of Fundy" explanation.

Isn't the Flood a Noun? How did Moses manage to write about that anyway?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 05-09-2018 11:43 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 05-09-2018 12:51 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 40 of 70 (832752)
05-09-2018 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by NoNukes
05-09-2018 11:54 AM


Re: I dont support the flood, but like to discuss it
It's the basic dishonesty that forms the basis of so much of Christianity today; the basics of Apologetics; palm the pea, con the rubes, misdirect attention, move the goal posts, throw shit and see what sticks.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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 Message 39 by NoNukes, posted 05-09-2018 11:54 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6141
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 70 (832755)
05-09-2018 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by NoNukes
05-09-2018 8:28 AM


Re: Perhaps You Can Initiate The Explanations
Hi NoNukes

NoNukes writes:

Why are the tides at the Bay of Fundy nearly unique, ICANT? Is it because Fundy is the only place on earth with a topology similar to the "land mass all in one place and relatively flat" scenario that you describe for the entire earth? Or is there some other reason? Hint: The explanation for the tides at the Bay of Fundy is readily available to anyone who bothers to look.

My mentioning of the rise and fall of the water at the Bay of Fundy is for visual content only.

The tide rises and falls and has been doing so for a very,very,very long time. It has not destroyed the landscape.

I have personally viewed the rise and fall of the tide back in the 50's and it is a beautiful sight to behold.

For the water to rise 53 feet in 6 hours it has to rise 8 feet and 10 inches per hour. Which is a little over 1 3/4 inches per minute. That means it rises 1 foot every 6.85 minutes.

The exact opposite is required for the water to decrease 53 feet in 6 hours.

My observation that I could not tell the difference in the landscape between before and after the rise and fall of the water, I concluded it did not do much damage due to the change in the depth of the water.

The Bible says the water was all in one place which leads me to believe all the land was in one place. In fact science confirms for me that the land mass was a supercontinent in the past.

My hypothesis then is:

Providing that all the dry land mass was in one place and was relatively flat as was believed in the past. Water could have rose to cover that land mass and receded without leaving much of a trace. According to what happens twice daily at the Bay of Fundy. Then if the land mass was divided into the configuration we have today that division would have erased all evidence for such an event.
Yet we do have evidence that mountains as well as in valleys have been covered with water in the past. We know this because we find sea shells in and on the mountains and in the valleys.

My conclusions are that in the past there was one land mass surrounded by water. That land mass was covered with water for a short period of time. That land mass was divided into the configuration we have today.

I think science concurs with my notion.

It is believed by some scientist that at one time 95% of the surface of the earth was covered with water leaving a small dry land mass. This dry land mass of 5% was increased to the present 30% dry land mass that we have today .https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/02/020208075438.htm

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 42 of 70 (832758)
05-09-2018 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ICANT
05-09-2018 1:23 PM


Re: Perhaps You Can Initiate The Explanations
ICANT writes:

The tide rises and falls and has been doing so for a very,very,very long time. It has not destroyed the landscape.


Yes it has.
quote:
The Hopewell Rocks, also called the Flowerpots Rocks or simply The Rocks, are rock formations caused by tidal erosion in The Hopewell Rocks Ocean Tidal Exploration Site in New Brunswick. Wikipedia

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ICANT, posted 05-09-2018 1:23 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 43 of 70 (832759)
05-09-2018 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ICANT
05-09-2018 1:23 PM


ICANT cant see to follow even simple instructions
And once again your post has nothing to do with the topic and is just another example of you trying to palm the pea, con the rubes, move the goal post, misdirect attention and in general dishonesty and deceit.

If you have nothing related to the topic to post then please take your nonsense to some other thread.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 70 (832761)
05-09-2018 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ICANT
05-09-2018 1:23 PM


Re: Perhaps You Can Initiate The Explanations
My mentioning of the rise and fall of the water at the Bay of Fundy is for visual content only.

That statement means nothing.

The tide rises and falls and has been doing so for a very,very,very long time. It has not destroyed the landscape.

Really? What did the landscape look like before ICANT?

Are you even trying here?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ICANT, posted 05-09-2018 1:23 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 45 of 70 (832781)
05-10-2018 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
05-09-2018 3:20 PM


A Flood Of Controversy
You have provided some solid arguments that indicate that a Biblical Great Flood---at least of the global variety---never happened.

One of my favorite ones that you ever made was this one:

quote:
In the version of the myth found in Genesis 6 God instructs Noah to:

quote:
19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."

In the version of the myth found in Genesis 7 we see similar (close but not the same) instructions:

quote:
2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.

We also find similar explanations of what will be destroyed in Genesis 6 it says:

quote:
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

and in Genesis 7:

quote:
4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

In both myths lots of critters get killed, in the myth found in Genesis 6 it seems to be talking about land animals and birds while the myth found in Genesis 7 goes even further and wipes out all living things.

If we play mix and match and take the best scenario from each of the myths we might be able to claim that only the birds and land animals were wiped out based on the passage from the Genesis 6 story and that we have the larger saved population found in Genesis 7.

Based on that mix and match game set we have a situation where all land animals and birds found today will be descended from a population that consisted of at most fourteen critters (seven pairs of clean animals and birds) and at worst case four critters (two pair of unclean animals).

Now that is what I would call a real bottleneck.

We know we can see bottlenecks in the genetic record; a great example is the one in Cheetahs but we even see them in the human genome and most other species.

BUT...

If the flood actually happened we would see a bottleneck in EVERY species of animal living on the land and EVERY bird and EVERY one of the bottlenecks show up in the SAME historical time period.

Talk about a big RED flag.

That bottleneck signature would be something every geneticists in the world would see. It would be like a neon sign, Broadway at midnight on New Years Eve. It would be something even a blind geneticist could see.

So it seems to me to be a very simple test that will support or refute the Flood.

If that genetic marker is there in EVERY species living on land or bird of the air, then there is support for the flood. It does not prove the flood happened but it would be very strong support.

If on the other hand that genetic marker is NOT there, then the Flood is refuted.

And there is no genetic bottleneck signature common to all animals pointing to the same event; thus the Biblical flood has been totally and completely refuted.


A couple of questions:

  • Is there any evidence that a large local flood led to the stories being generated?
  • Is it possible that God did things the way that the Bible says for the purpose of tripping up educated minds?
  • Is it possible to use the logic, reason, and realistic approach and still believe that God exists apart from a character in an ancient book?

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 43 by jar, posted 05-09-2018 3:20 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 46 by jar, posted 05-10-2018 10:09 AM Phat has responded

      
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