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Author Topic:   Hubble's Law Disproves Young Earth Creationism
jar
Member
Posts: 30500
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 16 of 36 (832990)
05-15-2018 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Calvin
05-15-2018 5:47 PM


look at the responses.
The problem is that so far nothing you have presented disproves Young Earth Creationism.

Significantly, so far everyone who has replied to you agree that Young Earth Creationism is simply a really stupid concept that can only be supported by utter and total willful ignorance or utter dishonesty. Yet they are all saying the same thing; what you presented fails to disprove Young Earth Creationism.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Calvin
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Posts: 9
From: California
Joined: 05-14-2018


Message 17 of 36 (832992)
05-15-2018 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
05-15-2018 6:45 PM


Re: look at the responses.
It disproves a young earth, but only if we already assume that the big bang is true. If someone would like to contest this I can provide evidence for the big bang theory.

If we assume the big bang is true, an alternative for why we get 13.8 billion years from Hubble's Constant must be presented in order to discount my argument. A universe that's "created old" is a possibiltiy but would need to be proven, which it hasn't been.

Edited by Calvin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 05-15-2018 6:45 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 05-15-2018 7:52 PM Calvin has responded
 Message 21 by NoNukes, posted 05-16-2018 12:30 AM Calvin has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30500
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 18 of 36 (832993)
05-15-2018 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Calvin
05-15-2018 7:02 PM


Re: look at the responses.
calvin writes:

It disproves a young earth, but only if we already assume that the big bang is true.

No it says nothing about the age of the earth. It does set a minimum age for the universe but you are trying to disprove Young EARTH Creationism, not Young UNIVERSE Creationism.

You might be able to challenge the Genesis 1:1 tale if you could show there was a difference between the age of the universe and the age of the Earth, but again, nothing in your presentation establishes that relationship.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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 Message 17 by Calvin, posted 05-15-2018 7:02 PM Calvin has responded

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 Message 19 by Calvin, posted 05-15-2018 7:56 PM jar has responded

  
Calvin
Junior Member
Posts: 9
From: California
Joined: 05-14-2018


Message 19 of 36 (832994)
05-15-2018 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
05-15-2018 7:52 PM


Re: look at the responses.
Making that distinction, you're totally correct. It disproves a young universe but not a young Earth. If a christian believed in a young Earth but an old universe, like you said I would point to Genesis 1:1. Since it implies the Earth and universe are the same age.
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 Message 18 by jar, posted 05-15-2018 7:52 PM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 30500
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 20 of 36 (832995)
05-15-2018 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Calvin
05-15-2018 7:56 PM


Re: look at the responses.
But first you need to offer evidence that the Earth and Universe are NOT the same age.

The problem is that facts and reality will not challenge Young Earth Creationism.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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NoNukes
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Posts: 10734
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 21 of 36 (833003)
05-16-2018 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Calvin
05-15-2018 7:02 PM


Re: look at the responses.
It disproves a young earth, but only if we already assume that the big bang is true. If someone would like to contest this I can provide evidence for the big bang theory.

So then you admit that your single piece of evidence does the trick claim is not correct?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


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Calvin
Junior Member
Posts: 9
From: California
Joined: 05-14-2018


Message 22 of 36 (833007)
05-16-2018 1:09 AM


So then you admit that your single piece of evidence does the trick claim is not correct?

I think it competely rules out a young universe. But if this is our only piece of evidence, it does not disprove a young Earth.

Fortunately, we have mountains more evidence for an old Earth. If you'd like I could provide some.

Edited by Calvin, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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 Message 24 by NoNukes, posted 05-16-2018 10:51 AM Calvin has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30500
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 23 of 36 (833013)
05-16-2018 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Calvin
05-16-2018 1:09 AM


Calvin writes:

I think it competely rules out a young universe. But if this is our only piece of evidence, it does not disprove a young Earth.

Fortunately, we have mountains more evidence for an old Earth. If you'd like I could provide some.

Remember, so far all of the respondents agree that the Earth is Young and it's unlikely you can present evidence we are not currently also presenting to Young Earth Creationists.

BUT you don't have yo convince us, rather you need to present something that a Young Earth Cult member would find convincing.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10734
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 24 of 36 (833032)
05-16-2018 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Calvin
05-16-2018 1:09 AM


Fortunately, we have mountains more evidence for an old Earth. If you'd like I could provide some

There is not a single participant in this thread who thinks either the universe or the earth are not billions of years old.

However, I and others also know a bad argument when we see one. The fact that the universe is currently expanding is consistent with the universe being old, but it is not sufficient to prove that.

I would not let a creationist get away with an argument of that nature, and I would apply the same standard to folk who argue a position I agree with. Hubble's law does not disprove Young Earth Creationism. More evidence than that is required.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Calvin, posted 05-16-2018 1:09 AM Calvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Calvin, posted 05-16-2018 5:35 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Calvin
Junior Member
Posts: 9
From: California
Joined: 05-14-2018


Message 25 of 36 (833093)
05-16-2018 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by NoNukes
05-16-2018 10:51 AM


Interesting, so what do you think is a valid argument against, my post? Even if you think there are other things that prove an old universe/Earth. Remember, I've conceded that it a) it assumes the big bang theory to be true and b) says nothing about the age of the Earth. But I currently still do think it can prove the age of the universe to be billions of years old.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by NoNukes, posted 05-16-2018 10:51 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 05-16-2018 5:37 PM Calvin has responded
 Message 28 by NoNukes, posted 05-17-2018 1:25 AM Calvin has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30500
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 26 of 36 (833094)
05-16-2018 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Calvin
05-16-2018 5:35 PM


Have you ever poked holes in jello with a needle?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Calvin, posted 05-16-2018 5:35 PM Calvin has responded

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Calvin
Junior Member
Posts: 9
From: California
Joined: 05-14-2018


Message 27 of 36 (833096)
05-16-2018 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
05-16-2018 5:37 PM


Uhhh... No?
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10734
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 28 of 36 (833103)
05-17-2018 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Calvin
05-16-2018 5:35 PM


But I currently still do think it can prove the age of the universe to be billions of years old.

Science does not prove things. So no, you cannot. The evidence supports a billion-year-old universe and rejects a young, several thousand year old one. None of us can do better than that.

In any event, a YEC is not going to spot you the big bang.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Calvin, posted 05-16-2018 5:35 PM Calvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Calvin, posted 05-17-2018 1:30 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Calvin
Junior Member
Posts: 9
From: California
Joined: 05-14-2018


Message 29 of 36 (833104)
05-17-2018 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by NoNukes
05-17-2018 1:25 AM


You're right of course, science never proves thing, it only selects the best model to explain our observations. But I think my op is fairly strong evidence that an old universe is exactly that.

In any case, it's kind of moot since no one here seems to be a YEC.

Edited by Calvin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by NoNukes, posted 05-17-2018 1:25 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by NoNukes, posted 05-17-2018 2:23 AM Calvin has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10734
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 30 of 36 (833105)
05-17-2018 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Calvin
05-17-2018 1:30 AM


ou're right of course, science never proves thing, it only selects the best model to explain our observations. But I think my op is fairly strong evidence that an old universe is exactly that.

In any case, it's kind of moot since no one here seems to be a YEC.

I don't think it is moot. But since science does not prove things, but rather establishes thing to some degree of certainty, that means one lone fact cannot serve as "the evidence" that the universe is old. No one fact does that.

In my view, the best evidence that the universe is old is that there are old things in it, but establishing the age of things like the earth, the sun, and the other stars requires a systematic study of various evidence.

Given that reality, you should know that you oversold your original claim. And that does matter even if there are no Creationists here.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Calvin, posted 05-17-2018 1:30 AM Calvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Calvin, posted 05-17-2018 2:30 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
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