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Author Topic:   The spectacular fall of YEC beliefs
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 358
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 136 of 185 (833412)
05-20-2018 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Faith
05-20-2018 5:23 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
...the distinction between Allah who wants infidels murdered...

Just like your god, whose followers committed numerous genocides at his command. Remember, Allah's agents are acting on his will, just like the Israelites were.

...and offers no salvation...

This will come as news to all the martyrs, reclining in paradise and enjoying their bottomless boxes of Glosettes.

...the Pope who wants infidels murdered...

Citation needed.
And aren't you mixing up your lingo here? I'm pretty sure the Pope is an infidel. You might be thinking of a different guy. Check for a beard.

...thinks salvation depends on being good...

The Horror!!!!!!

...or being in good standing with the Roman Church...

As opposed to, say, accepting the grace offered by the voices in your head?

...the Protestant God who died...

Have you even read the Bible? He had a bad weekend. Barely. I don't think I've ever met a person who wouldn't give up their life to save even a single child if they knew they got to come back on Tuesday, er, Monday.... wait, Sunday??? Sheeit, that hardly qualifies as dying. More of a blackout kind of thing. Was there any tequila at that Last Happy Hour?

...save us from the inexorable Moral Law...

AKA exactly the degree of petulance (he's alleged to be in charge of everything, remember?) you'd expect from the kind of asshole whose response to children who don't follow his will is "kill 'em all". You know, the flood thingy you believe in.

I understand that self-awareness is pretty much incompatible with fundamentalism, but really Faith, you have lowered he bar considerably.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 5:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 7:09 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29173
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 137 of 185 (833414)
05-20-2018 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Capt Stormfield
05-20-2018 7:00 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Liberal Nazis just can't think. The Bible shows God's judgments in the past of seriously lawbreaking nations (human sacrifice, sacrifice of infants to demon gods, homosexual acts as worship...). That's history. There is nothing in the Bible that tells US to do anything but be good to our neighbors, while the Koran tells its readers to kill Christians and Jews.

Oh right if you kill some infidels, and you are a man, you get to have a carnally thrilling eternity served by beautiful young women. That alone should te;; you what a total absolute crock Islam is and what a weirdly devilish mind Mohammed had.

I need to cite the Pope's inquisition and the fact that it hasn't been rescinded? It still goes on in dungeons out of sight.

Yes it is a horror where salvation depends on being good because nobody can be good enough to escape eternal punishmentun der the absolutely perfect Moral Law. That's why Jesus had to die for us. All other religions condemn people to hell by pretending they can be good enough to avoid it. Although at least Hinduism says if you've got bad karma you could come back as an animal.

The Moral Law is the Operating System of the universe, controlling everything that happens. It can't be changed, it's perfection itself. But since we aren't it condemns us, and that's what Jesus died to save us from.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-20-2018 7:00 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 05-20-2018 7:22 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 139 by Modulous, posted 05-20-2018 7:39 PM Faith has responded
 Message 141 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-20-2018 8:05 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30710
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 138 of 185 (833415)
05-20-2018 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Faith
05-20-2018 7:09 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Faith writes:

There is nothing in the Bible that tells US to do anything but be good to our neighbors, while the Koran tells its readers to kill Christians and Jews.

That is another falsehood Faith. The Qur'an does not tell its readers to kill Christians and Jews.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 7:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 139 of 185 (833416)
05-20-2018 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Faith
05-20-2018 7:09 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
the Koran tells its readers to kill Christians and Jews.

quote:
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians... they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them

quote:
And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian.

quote:
And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.

quote:
And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance.

quote:
And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course.

quote:
do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians?

quote:
Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim

quote:
And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.

quote:
And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay, you are mortals from among those whom He has created, He forgives whom He pleases and chastises whom He pleases; and Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and to Him is the eventual coming.

quote:
do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other;

quote:
and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.

quote:
And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

quote:
Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who associate (others with Allah)-- surely Allah will decide between them on the day of resurrection; surely Allah is a witness over all things.

That's all the references to Christians. Please point out where the reader is asked to kill them.

Oh right if you kill some infidels, and you are a man, you get to have a carnally thrilling eternity served by beautiful young women.

Well, everyone in heaven gets perfect companions in Islam. Killing infidels is only permitted if they war against you and oppress you. Which is the same as God's position in the Bible. Killing people of the Book just because is a grave sin and won't get you to heaven.

Allah says be kind to be people, even strangers. Allah will make the judgements, and will punish those that fall short. It is not given to his followers to do so.

Do you think spreading disinformation about Islam will bolster support for Young Earth Creationism? I mean Muslims are way more likely to be Young Earth Creationists than Christians are, it seems like in this battle you should be on side with them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 7:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 7:46 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29173
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 140 of 185 (833417)
05-20-2018 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Modulous
05-20-2018 7:39 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
No, the Koran talks out of both sides of its mouth as it were. There are the nice passages and then there are the murderous passages. You left out the commands to kill Jews and Christians wherever you find them, with no provocation at all. And Mohammed himself killed a whole community of Jews simply because they refused to convert to Islam. You are whitewashing that evil ideology.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Modulous, posted 05-20-2018 7:39 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 8:08 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 143 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-20-2018 8:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 358
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 141 of 185 (833418)
05-20-2018 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Faith
05-20-2018 7:09 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
...God's judgments in the past of seriously lawbreaking nations...

Exactly like Allah's judgements of today, and carried out the same way: Through his faithful servants following his will.

There is nothing in the Bible that tells US to do anything but be good...

Unless God tells us to. Like he told the Israelites back then, and like Allah tells his armies today. Think of it, Faith, it's like we're living in the Holy Land in Holy Times. As Amalekites.

...a carnally thrilling eternity served by beautiful young women

Raisins, Faith, raisins. I see you're not entirely au fait with contemporary Islam.

I need to cite the Pope's inquisition...?

You know he's dead right? When someone says "the president said...", you'd normally assume they weren't talking about Calvin Coolidge, right? Right? OK, sorry I asked.

...hasn't been rescinded? It still goes on in dungeons out of sight.

Under a pizza joint, amirite? Wow, thanks for the intel! Now the whole pedo thing is starting to really come together...

Would this be a bad time to get a little deeper into the Elvis conspiracy thing?

... All other religions condemn people to hell by pretending...

Ooooh, it makes me tingle when the dark shadow where your self-awareness ought to be falls across my screen.

You understand that they think you're the one pretending that... oh never mind.

The Moral Law is the Operating System of the universe, controlling everything that happens. It can't be changed, it's perfection itself. But since we aren't it condemns us, and that's what Jesus died to save us from.

You know, I think a vacancy opened up down at Chick Tract Inc. a while back... Just sayin', in case the pension isn't keeping up, that sort of thing. I mean it's not like they're dropping manna on the lawn any more, right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 7:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 8:10 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29173
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 142 of 185 (833419)
05-20-2018 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Faith
05-20-2018 7:46 PM


It's in the hadiths, not the Koran, sorry
OK I forgot it's in the HADITHS, not the Koran.

The Prophet of Allah has promised us that the Jews will gather in Palestine, and that the Muslims will fight them, and totally kill them. Even the stone and the tree will say: "Oh Muslims, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

I'll have to find a better source and also the quote about Christians. It's hard to find these things because of the Liberal Nazis at Google and the tireless efforts of Muslims to whitewash their religion online.

And I'm having that problem again of not being able to post because of being directed to the log-in page and the "delete cookies" isn't working.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 7:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-20-2018 8:22 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 148 by jar, posted 05-20-2018 8:32 PM Faith has responded
 Message 149 by Modulous, posted 05-20-2018 9:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 358
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 143 of 185 (833420)
05-20-2018 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Faith
05-20-2018 7:46 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
No, the Koran talks out of both sides of its mouth...

You know those "101 Bible Contradictions" sites?

You know how you have answers for all the ignorant atheists gloating over them?

Guess what.....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 7:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29173
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 144 of 185 (833421)
05-20-2018 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Capt Stormfield
05-20-2018 8:05 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Right, it's the same thing as Old Testament history of God's judgments for specific offenses if Muslims kill people indiscriminately today. Liberal Nazi insanity reigns.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-20-2018 8:05 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Capt Stormfield, posted 05-20-2018 8:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 358
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 145 of 185 (833422)
05-20-2018 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
05-20-2018 8:08 PM


Re: It's in the hadiths, not the Koran, sorry
I'm having that problem again of not being able to post

And yet....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 8:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 358
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 146 of 185 (833423)
05-20-2018 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
05-20-2018 8:10 PM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
...it's the same thing as Old Testament history of God's judgments for specific offenses if Muslims kill people indiscriminately today.

What makes you think it's indiscriminate? Are you denying the power of God to direct his servants to the right infidels, or to protect the innocent with his invisible hand? Similar to the laser like precision he used killing "... both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass..."...

OK, bad example, but....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 8:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17580
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 147 of 185 (833424)
05-20-2018 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
05-20-2018 10:07 AM


Re: Cut the ad hominems.
Faith writes:

"Scientifically established understandings" was your phrase, and you were condemning me for denying those understandings.

This reads like you think I contradicted myself, but what's really happened is that you responded to what I said in one paragraph while citing what I said in a different paragraph. You would really be better served quoting what you're responding so it can be right there in front you. That way you wouldn't make silly mistakes like this.

Which denial as a matter of fact only pertains to the historical sciences which I consider to be bad science, no other kind of science.

This has been rebutted numerous times, you just never respond. All scientific data is historical, even if it was from a nanosecond ago. Forensic science that you love so much analyzes data from the past. Evidence has no expiration date.

In any case your unwarranted personal attacks on me continue and as a result I continue to ignore you when I choose to.

You do what you always do, make up excuses for not responding to that for which you have no answer.

Oh, and let me repeat: Islam is an evil ideology that seeks the murder of "infidels" as well as a world-wide caliphate; and Roman Catholicism is a power-hungry pagan superstitious ideology that also seeks the murder of "infidels." Two peas in a pod really, as some of the Reformers also noted. There are Muslims who fortunately don't follow their ideology very closely and the same with Catholics, but that doesn't change the fact that the ideologies are pure evil.

Yep, you're really giving those Muslims and Catholics the benefit of the doubt.

But getting back to the topic, you're providing a good example of why YEC is not declining. You subordinate scientifically established understandings to the Bible. If your Biblical way of "knowing" things could produce thermometers and hygrometers and barometers and steam engines and periodic tables of the elements and vacuum cleaners and vaccines and cell phones and mass spectrometers and space probes and so forth, then you could claim your way of "knowing" is just as good as science.

Of course the Bible produces no such understandings, but that does not dissuade YECs from their chosen course of ignorance and denial, and as long as they maintain that course YEC will not decline.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 10:07 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 05-21-2018 10:42 AM Percy has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30710
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 148 of 185 (833425)
05-20-2018 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
05-20-2018 8:08 PM


Re: It's in the hadiths, not the Koran, sorry
Faith: the point is that Islam and Islamic behavior does not justify Christian genocide.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 8:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 05-21-2018 3:15 AM jar has responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 149 of 185 (833426)
05-20-2018 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
05-20-2018 8:08 PM


Re: It's in the hadiths, not the Koran, sorry
The Prophet of Allah has promised us that the Jews will gather in Palestine, and that the Muslims will fight them, and totally kill them. Even the stone and the tree will say: "Oh Muslims, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

That is about the tribulations of the endtimes. This is after the return of Jesus, rise of the antichrist etc. There will only be two groups of people that matter. Those that follow God properly (who will be Muslims), and those that are not. The good people amongst Jews and Christians will convert to being Muslims when the truth is in front of them, so only the evil will remain Jews and Christians.

The slaves of Allah (not just Muslims) will hunt down the evil ones that refuse to accept the truth out of a hard heart and even the world will help them. This prophecy suggests a particular instance of this occurring in Palestine.

This is not a command to kill Jews, but a description that the Jews that deny Jesus and God to their face and follow the antichrist, will face violence and punishment. And that includes people who say they are Muslims but aren't really.

However, the good Muslims, presumably in your view - those that would include those that believe in a Young Earth and the special Creation. Do you think threatening violence and tribulations for not believing in Special Creation will serve to bolster those beliefs or do you worry that people will begin to grow weary of such threats and see them as age old techniques (whether they are true or not) and move away from believing the truth?

And I'm having that problem again of not being able to post because of being directed to the log-in page and the "delete cookies" isn't working.

Huh. I don't know what to suggest, then.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 05-20-2018 8:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
MiguelG
Member
Posts: 63
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


Message 150 of 185 (833427)
05-20-2018 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
05-16-2018 4:47 AM


Christianity, Science & 'Truth'
Correction for Faith: Christianity didn't give your country a liberal constitution, that was the Enlightenment. Also, the absence of Christianity isn't paganism, that's another brand of theism. When people leave Christianity it generally tends to be a drift towards atheism. A Pew research study from 2015: “America’s Changing Religious Landscape” found that “the Christian share of the U.S. population is declining, while the number of U.S. adults who do not identify with any organized religion is growing.”
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 4:47 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 05-21-2018 3:17 AM MiguelG has not yet responded

  
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