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Author Topic:   The spectacular fall of YEC beliefs
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4621
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 181 of 198 (833749)
05-26-2018 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
05-13-2018 5:55 PM


Well, like with all statistical arguments it depends where the focus is doesn't it Modulous?

It seems to me you are basically representing creationism as, "YEC", but it seems you allude to the fact you would included IDists as creationists, and so it is reasonable that creationism as a whole, according to evolutionists, is YEC/OEC/ID.

(You can't have your cake as an ornament, and also eat it.)

So then the real question is, "what do the statistics mean?" For example you said educating people tends to lead to less YECs according to the statistics. I would ask, "what is the significance of that?"

For example as you have already noted, they won't allow any kind of creationism in schools, so they are only teaching evolution. So it seems to me the statistics could just as easily support the notion that it is easy to brainwash students by only telling them one side of a story. Confronted by all of that, "science" what can most young brains do other than to say, "wow it must be true", if they are not exposed to a critical analysis of all of those evolutionary views?

I think it's almost tautologous that as a society rejects Christianity and creation more and more that it will lead to less and less Christianity and creation within that society.

Big deal, that doesn't affect my faith as an individual, and it isn't going to make me believe 200 identical genes for echolocation in bats and whales, could come about separately, or that eyes can create and design themselves independently, or that abiogenesised blobs can later give rise to Elvis Presley and Diana Ross.

So these are the generalities. Sure you can claim a, "victory" when you have 15 tanks, 200 rifles and 400 explosives and I only have a bow and arrow. But really you are arguing your victory, your win, as something pertaining to society, obtusely forgetting that our society is not worldly. Numbers aren't our goal and the true victory is already won on the cross.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 05-13-2018 5:55 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Modulous, posted 05-26-2018 10:06 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 86 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 182 of 198 (833758)
05-26-2018 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by mike the wiz
05-26-2018 7:46 AM


It seems to me you are basically representing creationism as, "YEC", but it seems you allude to the fact you would included IDists as creationists, and so it is reasonable that creationism as a whole, according to evolutionists, is YEC/OEC/ID.

(You can't have your cake as an ornament, and also eat it.)

I am not representing creationism as YEC. I'm talking about the drop-off of YEC beliefs because YEC beliefs are the ones that are falling numbers. This isn't about the beliefs of OECs - although I do mention their numbers are largely stable. So I don't know where you got any of that from.

So then the real question is, "what do the statistics mean?" For example you said educating people tends to lead to less YECs according to the statistics. I would ask, "what is the significance of that?"

One of two things. Either the critical thinking that is taught at higher education causes people to examine other ideas they have OR the kind of people that go and get higher education are less inclined to have YEC beliefs in the first place. Or both.

For example as you have already noted, they won't allow any kind of creationism in schools, so they are only teaching evolution. So it seems to me the statistics could just as easily support the notion that it is easy to brainwash students by only telling them one side of a story.

Well the biggest dropoffs don't occur during school so that hypothesis doesn't seem right. The big dropoffs are from college and beyond. Most subjects aren't even related to Creationism, evolution or cosmology so the fact that they're not taught in say economics, business, computer science, mathematics etc is immaterial.

48% of high school students or graduates believe in a 10K old specially created world.
42% of those with 'some college'
24% of college graduates
21% of postgraduates.

Confronted by all of that, "science" what can most young brains do other than to say, "wow it must be true", if they are not exposed to a critical analysis of all of those evolutionary views?

They are exposed to critical analysis, but they aren't being exposed to the bad logic and fallacious arguments of creationism. Mostly because they aren't studying anything to do with origins. However, there are still places that people can go to 'learn' all that creationist stuff - its just generally speaking there isn't a big market for spending 10s of thousands of dollars to do it.

Big deal, that doesn't affect my faith as an individual

This discussion was not intended to affect your faith.

and it isn't going to make me believe 200 identical genes for echolocation in bats and whales, could come about separately

Great. Although I should point out that the genes aren't identical - you've misunderstood the research which points out there are 200 loci that have converged, not genes. And you are welcome to disbelieve that the same search algorithm may converge on similar solutions to the same problem all you like. It won't change the fact that less and less people believe the explanation is that God created humans and bats and dolphins more or less as they are 10,000 years ago.

or that eyes can create and design themselves independently

Nobody is trying to make you believe that. It's nonsense!

So these are the generalities. Sure you can claim a, "victory" when you have 15 tanks, 200 rifles and 400 explosives and I only have a bow and arrow.

Naturally. And in the Muslim world, where the Creationists have tanks and rifles and explosives and the evolutionists have bows and arrows they can claim victory.

But really you are arguing your victory, your win, as something pertaining to society, obtusely forgetting that our society is not worldly.

I'm pretty sure it is worldly.

Numbers aren't our goal and the true victory is already won on the cross.

Good for you. Who cares if creationism isn't taught in schools, then? Nobody should! You have your victory, we have ours. Everyone's a winner. The ICR can close its doors for good as what use does it have to try and persuade people of creationism when numbers aren't your goal?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by mike the wiz, posted 05-26-2018 7:46 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2018 1:36 PM Modulous has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 198 (833791)
05-26-2018 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Modulous
05-26-2018 10:06 AM



48% of high school students or graduates believe in a 10K old specially created world.
42% of those with 'some college'
24% of college graduates
21% of postgraduates.

These stats almost certainly do not reflect an educating process. At least not completely. I suspect that most of the difference is screening, and perhaps self-screening. College weeds out folks who are not able to absorb a college education. There is a similar cut at the point where it is time to enroll in graduate school.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Modulous, posted 05-26-2018 10:06 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Modulous, posted 05-26-2018 2:04 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 86 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 184 of 198 (833796)
05-26-2018 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by NoNukes
05-26-2018 1:36 PM


These stats almost certainly do not reflect an educating process. At least not completely. I suspect that most of the difference is screening, and perhaps self-screening.

So you are saying that the kind of people that go and get higher education are less inclined to have YEC beliefs in the first place.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2018 1:36 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2018 5:29 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 198 (833807)
05-26-2018 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Modulous
05-26-2018 2:04 PM


"less inclined"

I am suggesting that to be part of the reason. Less inclined plus less able along with the possibility of being educated out of YEC beliefs.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Modulous, posted 05-26-2018 2:04 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 715
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 186 of 198 (838688)
08-26-2018 7:15 AM


Christians need to accept the revelation of the God's creation - to wit: the earth.
Science suggests that the earth is billions of years old and that life began as relatively simple creatures, with more complex creatures added as millions of years passed to the present day. The obvious gaps in the fossils record are consistent with the Christian theory of a progressive creation. This is an "evolution" of sorts, but has nothing to do with Darwinsim or biological evolution. Humans didn't evolve from monkey-men (aka mankeys), for example - humans were a separate and distinct creation, formed from dust, as Genesis 2:7 states. None of the created kinds evolve beyond their original kind, although microevolution obvioulsy occurs within each kind.
Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-26-2018 11:02 AM Dredge has responded
 Message 188 by Taq, posted 08-27-2018 4:16 PM Dredge has responded
 Message 189 by jar, posted 08-27-2018 5:10 PM Dredge has responded
 Message 195 by Faith, posted 08-28-2018 2:23 PM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 198 by dwise1, posted 08-30-2018 9:21 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16071
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 187 of 198 (838703)
08-26-2018 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Dredge
08-26-2018 7:15 AM


So in the first half of your post you're accepting science and indeed laying it down as a general principle that Christians ought to accept it and then in the second half of the post you reject science in favor of stuff you made up.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Dredge, posted 08-26-2018 7:15 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Dredge, posted 08-28-2018 2:39 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7631
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 188 of 198 (838776)
08-27-2018 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Dredge
08-26-2018 7:15 AM


Dredge writes:

The obvious gaps in the fossils record are consistent with the Christian theory of a progressive creation.

How did you determine that these are real gaps instead of fossils we just haven't found yet? In the last 20 years a lot of gaps in the fossil record have been filled in.

Humans didn't evolve from monkey-men (aka mankeys), for example - humans were a separate and distinct creation, formed from dust, as Genesis 2:7 states. None of the created kinds evolve beyond their original kind, although microevolution obvioulsy occurs within each kind.

For someone who talks about fossils being evidence I am surprised you would say this. There a lot of fossils that fill the gap between humans and other apes:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Dredge, posted 08-26-2018 7:15 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Dredge, posted 08-28-2018 2:24 AM Taq has responded
 Message 197 by dwise1, posted 08-30-2018 7:41 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 189 of 198 (838780)
08-27-2018 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Dredge
08-26-2018 7:15 AM


more evidence of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
Dredge writes:

The obvious gaps in the fossils record are consistent with the Christian theory of a progressive creation.

There is no such thing as a Christian Theory of Progressive Creation and even making such a claim is simply demonstrating the utter ignorance of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

It is as stupid an assertion as claiming Creation Science exists.

Either simply show that the poster is utterly ignorant of what science is or what a theory is.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Dredge, posted 08-26-2018 7:15 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Dredge, posted 08-28-2018 2:43 AM jar has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 715
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 190 of 198 (838787)
08-28-2018 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Taq
08-27-2018 4:16 PM


Sadly, you are mistaking wishful thinking for evidence. This is a very common fault (read: delusion) amongst evolutionists.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Taq, posted 08-27-2018 4:16 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 715
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 191 of 198 (838788)
08-28-2018 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Dr Adequate
08-26-2018 11:02 AM


Well, yes ... in that sense it is just like the hypothesis of Punctuated Equilibrium

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-26-2018 11:02 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 715
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 192 of 198 (838789)
08-28-2018 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by jar
08-27-2018 5:10 PM


Re: more evidence of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
Where did I claim in that post that it was a theory of science?

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by jar, posted 08-27-2018 5:10 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by jar, posted 08-28-2018 6:13 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 194 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2018 7:15 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 193 of 198 (838791)
08-28-2018 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Dredge
08-28-2018 2:43 AM


Re: more evidence of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
You claimed it was a theory. Honestly, all your posts show that you are even ignorant of what a theory is.

You are a classic example of the Christian Cult of Ignorance and an embarrassment to other Christians.

There is no evidence of progressive creation and there is absolute evidence that the Biblical Creation stories are factually wrong.

You can try to play your conman word games but the facts are that there is evidence for evolution and zero evidence for creation.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Dredge, posted 08-28-2018 2:43 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6398
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 194 of 198 (838792)
08-28-2018 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Dredge
08-28-2018 2:43 AM


Re: more evidence of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
Dredge writes:

Where did I claim in that post that it was a theory of science?

Why are you then posting a religious belief in a science forum?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Dredge, posted 08-28-2018 2:43 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30230
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 195 of 198 (838803)
08-28-2018 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Dredge
08-26-2018 7:15 AM


Christians need to accept the revelation of the God's creation - to wit: the earth.

Scripture, which IS God's revelation of all things including the Creation, tells us that the Creation shows us Himself, its clues to the scientific questions are not so clear.

Science suggests that the earth is billions of years old and that life began as relatively simple creatures, with more complex creatures added as millions of years passed to the present day. The obvious gaps in the fossils record are consistent with the Christian theory of a progressive creation. This is an "evolution" of sorts, but has nothing to do with Darwinsim or biological evolution. Humans didn't evolve from monkey-men (aka mankeys), for example - humans were a separate and distinct creation, formed from dust, as Genesis 2:7 states. None of the created kinds evolve beyond their original kind, although microevolution obvioulsy occurs within each kind.

What do you mean by Progressive Creation?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Dredge, posted 08-26-2018 7:15 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
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