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Author Topic:   The spectacular fall of YEC beliefs
JonF
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Posts: 4161
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 16 of 185 (833027)
05-16-2018 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
05-16-2018 9:52 AM


Yes, some 95% of the population at the time of the Constitution was seriously Christian, the schools taught from the Bible and the Westminster Catechism, and the few Deists among the founders betrayed them by removing the Christian inspiration from the Constitution.

The entire group that created the Constitution realized the dangers in joining the church to the state. Calvin gave a great example in Geneva.

The best of the Enlightenment was inspired by Christianity too.

[citation required]

Wikipedia:

quote:
The Enlightenment included a range of ideas centred on reason as the primary source of authority and legitimacy and came to advance ideals like liberty, progress, tolerance, fraternity, constitutional government and separation of church and state.[4][5] In France, the central doctrines of the Enlightenment philosophers were individual liberty and religious tolerance, in opposition to an absolute monarchy and the fixed dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church. The Enlightenment was marked by an emphasis on the scientific method and reductionism, along with increased questioning of religious orthodoxy—an attitude captured by the phrase Sapere aude, "Dare to know".[6]

...

The Age of Enlightenment was preceded by and closely associated with the scientific revolution.[8] Earlier philosophers whose work influenced the Enlightenment included Bacon, Descartes, Locke, and Spinoza.[9] The major figures of the Enlightenment included Beccaria, Diderot, Hume, Kant, Montesquieu, Rousseau, Adam Smith, and Voltaire. Some European rulers, including Catherine II of Russia, Joseph II of Austria and Frederick II of Prussia, tried to apply Enlightenment thought on religious and political tolerance, which became known as enlightened absolutism.[10] Benjamin Franklin visited Europe repeatedly and contributed actively to the scientific and political debates there and brought the newest ideas back to Philadelphia. Thomas Jefferson closely followed European ideas and later incorporated some of the ideals of the Enlightenment into the Declaration of Independence (1776). One of his peers, James Madison, incorporated these ideals into the United States Constitution during its framing in 1787.[11]


(emphasis added)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 9:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 10:26 AM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29170
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 185 (833029)
05-16-2018 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by JonF
05-16-2018 10:04 AM


This is not about joining church and state, meaning having a state church, this is about preserving the philosophical foundations of the country. Putting God in the Constitution as was done in the Declaration of Independence would not be joining church and state but it would be declaring the essential Christian nature of the nation. Well, the few Deist rounders who dominated in the Constitutional framing betrayed the country despite their having been so soaked in Christian doctrine themselves they couldn't keep it out. All the Chrsitian influence has been getting redefined and expunged from our national life over the last half century or so, it can be felt in the deterioration of the moral life of the people and especially our leaders, we're sliding downhill rapidly and will soon be joining Europe in total pagan darkness in which witchcraft will once again be the religion.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by JonF, posted 05-16-2018 10:04 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 05-16-2018 10:51 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 20 by JonF, posted 05-16-2018 10:58 AM Faith has responded
 Message 39 by dwise1, posted 05-17-2018 3:05 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5972
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 18 of 185 (833031)
05-16-2018 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
05-16-2018 9:52 AM


Faith writes:

Yes, some 95% of the population at the time of the Constitution was seriously Christian, the schools taught from the Bible and the Westminster Catechism, and the few Deists among the founders betrayed them by removing the Christian inspiration from the Constitution. They were nevertheless soaked in Christian principles and that came through in spite of themselves. The best of the Enlightenment was inspired by Christianity too.

You're mistaking Christians - ie people - with Christianity - ie religion. I'm a Christian; I just happen to be an atheistic one. It was people that 'inspired' the enlightement, not religion. Left to its own devices religion would prevent the seaarch for knowledge and did so for centuries. But you know this.

But since none of you knows any of that you are eager to get back to tribal paganism and witchcraft, now weirdly justified by Christian principles you do not know the source of.

Humanism is fine. You may have noticed that no one here has ever expressed a desire for witchcraft, paganism or tribalism. In fact quite the opposite if you cared anything about actual truth.

So never left your state then. How about town?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 9:52 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5972
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 19 of 185 (833033)
05-16-2018 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
05-16-2018 10:26 AM


Faith writes:

we're sliding downhill rapidly and will soon be joining Europe in total pagan darkness in which witchcraft will once again be the religion.

You're bonkers. Stark staring bonkers.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 10:26 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4161
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 20 of 185 (833036)
05-16-2018 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
05-16-2018 10:26 AM


Yep, it would be declaring the essential Christian nature of the nation. Since the framers deliberately did not declare the essential Christian nature of the nation there is no such essential Christian nature. That's a good thing.

Calvin's Geneva.

The best of the Enlightenment was inspired by Christianity too.

Waiting for support for that claim.

It'll never come.

'Cuz it's false.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 10:26 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 05-16-2018 11:49 AM JonF has not yet responded
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 2:28 PM JonF has responded

  
jar
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Posts: 30708
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 21 of 185 (833045)
05-16-2018 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by JonF
05-16-2018 10:58 AM


Actually the best of the Enlightenment was inspired by a fear of Christianity so you can say that the example of Christianity inspired the separation from it's threat.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Modulous
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Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 22 of 185 (833051)
05-16-2018 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tangle
05-16-2018 2:51 AM


The Uk is around 10-15% creationist - which I still find shocking high even though it's mostly hidden so not as obvious as the US. And it seems to be on an increasing trend as immigration from Muslim countries and Estern Europe grows. There's still a very long way to go if you take a world view.

I don't know where you are based in the UK exactly but 10% doesn't seem unexpected to me. About 4-5% of the population is Muslim and they are overwhelmingly Creationist - even the ones that 'aren't really' creationist would be unlikely to say they weren't.

I think it's reasonable however, to look to the US as a 'soft target' - somewhere where attitudes are more amenable to change.

I don't think we can rely on the internet - it works both ways there are huge amounts of creationist and religious sites out there and the believers are just as capable with their propoganda as any other tribe; kids can remain inside their creationist bubble quite easily

But as there numbers decrease, it becomes increasingly difficult to remain in that bubble. It looks like acceptance of evolution is slowly creeping southwards. The evidence suggests young people are less likely to reject evolution than old people, so the bubble enforcement seems to weakening.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 05-16-2018 2:51 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Tangle, posted 05-16-2018 12:42 PM Modulous has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5972
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 23 of 185 (833055)
05-16-2018 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Modulous
05-16-2018 12:15 PM


Mod writes:

I don't know where you are based in the UK exactly but 10% doesn't seem unexpected to me. About 4-5% of the population is Muslim and they are overwhelmingly Creationist - even the ones that 'aren't really' creationist would be unlikely to say they weren't.

To be honest, although I was born and raised a traditional Christian in an overwhelmingly Christian community the stuff I hear you Americans talking about never ever came up. Evolution was universally taught and young earth was never ever raised. Maybe that's an English Christain thing.

I think it's reasonable however, to look to the US as a 'soft target' - somewhere where attitudes are more amenable to change.

Sure, it's easier go from 40% to 30% than from 10% to 0%. And it's great to see it happening. What's surprising is how late you guys are.

But as there numbers decrease, it becomes increasingly difficult to remain in that bubble. It looks like acceptance of evolution is slowly creeping southwards. The evidence suggests young people are less likely to reject evolution than old people, so the bubble enforcement seems to weake

It's inevitable - I hope.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 05-16-2018 12:15 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Modulous, posted 05-16-2018 2:17 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 05-17-2018 8:35 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 24 of 185 (833061)
05-16-2018 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Tangle
05-16-2018 12:42 PM


To be honest, although I was born and raised a traditional Christian in an overwhelmingly Christian community the stuff I hear you Americans talking about never ever came up. Evolution was universally taught and young earth was never ever raised. Maybe that's an English Christain thing.

The first time, I let it slide as I assume you were talking to the 'crowd' - but I am definitely not an American.

Sure, it's easier go from 40% to 30% than from 10% to 0%. And it's great to see it happening.

I'd go further and say it's easier to go from 40% to 30% than it is to go from 90% to 80%


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Tangle, posted 05-16-2018 12:42 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 05-16-2018 5:10 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29170
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 185 (833062)
05-16-2018 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
05-16-2018 11:49 AM


Actually the best of the Enlightenment was inspired by a fear of Christianity so you can say that the example of Christianity inspired the separation from it's threat.

A lot of the Enlightenment was protesting Roman Catholicism, rightly so in my opinion, and the Protetant Reformation did contribute to the best of the Enlightenment. John Locke, for instance, was mentored by John Owen, one of the greatest of the Puritan thinkers. Granted there were many influences involved, but some powerful ones were definitely from a Christian worldview. If the supernatural roots of Christianity hadn't been purged it would not have degenerated into the paganism we're now sliding toward.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 05-16-2018 11:49 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 05-16-2018 3:18 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 29 by JonF, posted 05-16-2018 3:40 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29170
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 185 (833063)
05-16-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by JonF
05-16-2018 10:58 AM


It probably won't come not because it's false but because it's in books I've read, and even those books aren't currently available to me now.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by JonF, posted 05-16-2018 10:58 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 05-16-2018 2:57 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 30 by JonF, posted 05-16-2018 3:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10866
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 27 of 185 (833066)
05-16-2018 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
05-16-2018 2:28 PM


Say what? It probably won't come... because it's in the books you've read? Your sentence makes zero sense.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 2:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30708
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 28 of 185 (833070)
05-16-2018 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
05-16-2018 2:27 PM


Yet you have never been able to show any evidence of paganism or that there is any issue with paganism or that the First Amendment was not intended to make sure that the Puritan nutjobs could only threaten their own gullible members.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 2:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4161
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 29 of 185 (833074)
05-16-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
05-16-2018 2:27 PM


That's what you got? A guy referenced John Locke?

If a Puritan thinker referenced Locke, that was the Enlightenment influencing Christians. The opposite of what you claimed. And a pretty minor influence.

Got any examples of Christians significantly affecting or influencing the Enlightenment other than as a bad example to be avoided?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 2:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 3:52 PM JonF has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4161
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 30 of 185 (833075)
05-16-2018 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
05-16-2018 2:28 PM


Yeah, that's really convincing. Rock solid evidence that you think some people wrote stuff somewhere that would support your claim.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 05-16-2018 2:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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