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Author Topic:   The spectacular fall of YEC beliefs
Phat
Member
Posts: 10819
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 106 of 185 (833245)
05-18-2018 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
05-18-2018 4:30 PM


Re: Why was the Spirit such a miserable failure?
I would add two more to your list.

  • Why do virtually all of the apologists reconcile contradictions? Can we conclude that they are guided by the Spirit of Truth or perhaps the spirit of marketing, according to some critics? Willful ignorance is never recognized by that label in those whom it affects.

  • Why do some folks describe/define GOD as a creation of humanity? Why can't they reconcile what is written to what they believe?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 105 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 4:30 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 107 by jar, posted 05-18-2018 5:02 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 30430
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 107 of 185 (833249)
    05-18-2018 5:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
    05-18-2018 4:48 PM


    Re: Why was the Spirit such a miserable failure?
    Phat writes:

    Why do virtually all of the apologists reconcile contradictions? Can we conclude that they are guided by the Spirit of Truth or perhaps the spirit of marketing, according to some critics? Willful ignorance is never recognized by that label in those whom it affects.

    They don't reconcile the contradictions but only spatter nonsense that their Cult members believe.

    Phat writes:

    Why do some folks describe/define GOD as a creation of humanity? Why can't they reconcile what is written to what they believe?

    Maybe because every example of God known seems to be a human creation? How do you reconcile the mutually exclusive descriptions as found in the actual writings like the God of Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3?


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
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    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 3160
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 3.0


    (2)
    Message 108 of 185 (833252)
    05-18-2018 5:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
    05-18-2018 7:25 AM


    Re: Madison's treatise against a state church
    ... against any kind of state enforced church or doctrine imposed on the people, basically an elaboration of freedom of conscience which was the big Puritan concern of the day; and Madison's concern was more for the church because an alliance with the state corrupts it. No, it is not against Christian principles running the government, it is against forcing people to believe something, which has nothing to do with having a basically Christian worldview as the foundation of governing principles.

    No, you still do not understand. So then please just read it! It's in English!!, so how hard could it possibly be?

    I should point out a bit more of the history, as I do on my own site (http://dwise1.net/rel_lib/memorial.html). Patrick Henry had introduced into the Virginia legislature a bill to "[establish] a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion" (ie, clergy) -- IOW, to pay clergy with government funds derived from taxpayers (from my page linked to above):

    quote:
    Patrick Henry's constituents had been complaining to him about the decline of public morality, much as the Religious Right does nowadays. In response, he sponsored a bill that would allocate public funds (ie, tax money) to "[establish] a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion" (ie, clergy). Thomas Jefferson's faction opposed the bill and were able to delay a vote on it until the next session. Then they were able to persuade James Madison to write a pamphlet opposing the bill which they then distributed throughout the state. That pamphlet, A Memorial and Remonstrance, proved so effective that when the State Legislature reconvened, Henry's bill was dropped without even being brought to a vote. Instead, Thomas Jefferson's Religious Liberty bill was voted into law.

    ... , which has nothing to do with having a basically Christian worldview as the foundation of governing principles.

    Which yet again forces me to ask just what the f*** you are talking about. Just what exactly does a Christian worldview have to do with the outright humanistic principles of self-governance that this great nation was founded upon. The Christian worldview would have been the Divine Right of Kings, which King James sought to enforce with his reinterpretation of the Bible (AKA the KJV) and which the Declaration of Independence completely and utterly blew out of the water! And the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States of America:

    quote:
    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    I was around and fully awake in the early 1980's and I was listening to the bullshit lies of the Radical Religious Right. They had a word to describe everything that is said in the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States of America: secular humanism!

    We completely rejected the Christian ideas of the Divine Right of Kings. We took it upon ourselves to create our own government by ourselves and for ourselves. Just what does any stupid god have to do with any of it?

    Yet again, your blatantly absurd and baseless assertions are nothing but nonsense. We cannot even figure out what you might think you are talking about.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 64 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 7:25 AM Faith has not yet responded

        
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 3160
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 3.0


    (1)
    Message 109 of 185 (833253)
    05-18-2018 5:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
    05-18-2018 12:21 PM


    Re: Cut the ad hominems.
    I lived the first 45 plus years of my life as a secular liberal who believed in evolution ...

    And yet you display a complete and utterly ignorance of evolution. Interesting.

    So then what you thought was evolution actually wasn't. So your entire rejection of evolution is based on false ideas about evolution based on your abysmal ignorance of the subject.

    So your rejection of evolution is actually a rejection of some false and hopelessly muddled ideas you had had about the subject which had nothing whatsoever with the actual subject of evolution.

    So all your statements about having "believed in evolution" and having subsequently rejected it are completely meaningless.

    So what's your point?

    Edited by dwise1, : o -> So


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 87 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 12:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

        
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 17361
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 110 of 185 (833255)
    05-18-2018 5:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
    05-18-2018 12:21 PM


    Re: Cut the ad hominems.
    Not that this is on-topic, but if you're going to comment on yourself then I will, too.

    Faith writes:

    When I became a Christian and a YEC I didn't turn into somebody else.

    Yeah, you actually did. There is no hint within you today of liberal compassion for their fellow man. You're all full of Old Testament vengeance and barbarity. One might ask, "What happened to change you so alarmingly?"

    Faith writes:

    I lived the first 45 plus years of my life as a secular liberal who believed in evolution and had a good reputation among my intellectual friends.

    Was your ignorance of evolution as great then as it is now? Is your reputation among those intellectual friends as good now as it was then?

    I don't think there's been any falling off of YEC beliefs. I think it's just become less overt, more insular, more canny, less confrontational.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 87 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 12:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

        
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 17361
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 111 of 185 (833256)
    05-18-2018 5:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
    05-18-2018 2:15 PM


    Re: Cut the ad hominems.
    Again failing to see relevance to topic but helpless to resist commenting...

    Faith writes:

    Civilized people extend the benefit of the doubt...

    Like perhaps to Muslims?

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 95 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 2:15 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 113 by JonF, posted 05-18-2018 6:24 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
     Message 115 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 9:08 PM Percy has responded

        
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 3160
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 112 of 185 (833258)
    05-18-2018 6:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
    05-18-2018 7:31 AM


    Re: Christianity was the source of universal education as well as liberal government
    Would you also object to the idea that the first moves toward literacy in Europe were made in order to teach the Bible?

    I would not make such a bold statement, but then so what?

    Certainly, the Catholic model was that the Universal Truth must not be misinterpreted, so the laity had to be kept insulated so that they would not arrive at heretical ideas because they naïvely did not know how to properly interpret Scripture.

    The Protestant model, born of Gutenberg's press, held that every member needed to read Scripture for himself.

    The decor of Catholic versus Protestant churches still echo this difference. Catholic churches are filled with imagery and art which constantly remind its worshipers of the lessons they have been taught, whereas Protestant churches are barren of any art since they are expected to read the Bible for themselves to remember the lessons taught.

    Which brings us to the issue of literacy. My understanding is that the original purpose of Sunday School was got teach church members, mostly adults, how to read. These people worked long hours in factories every day except for Sunday, so Sunday was used to teach them how to read.

    So what?

    Consider a hypothetical person. He lies constantly. Cheats everybody. Has stolen from many. Has killed a number of people in cold blood with absolutely no remorse whatsoever. But he always treats his mother extremely well.

    Is that a good person just because of how he treats his mother? Or is he a horrible persons for all the other outrageous crimes against humanity that he has committed?

    Given your lack of a functioning moral compass, I feel it necessary to state that, no, he is most definitely not a good person.

    Now apply that exercise to a religion. This hypothetical religion has done a small number of good things, but on the whole it proves to be completely evil. So is that religion completely good just because of a small number of good things it has wrought? Or is it evil because of the vast amount of evil that it produces?

    Again, your lack of a functioning moral compass would lead you astray. No, despite those few good things that religion has caused, even accidentally, it is still evil.

    So just what do you think you are accomplishing by bringing up one or two accidental good things?

    BTW, it was the Soviet Union, an officially atheist government, which accomplished one of the highest literacy rates in the world. So does that lead you to proclaim that Soviet Communism is a wonderfully ideal system? If not, then why not?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 65 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 7:31 AM Faith has not yet responded

        
    JonF
    Member
    Posts: 4142
    Joined: 06-23-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    (1)
    Message 113 of 185 (833259)
    05-18-2018 6:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 111 by Percy
    05-18-2018 5:49 PM


    Re: Cut the ad hominems.
    And Catholics.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 111 by Percy, posted 05-18-2018 5:49 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30430
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 114 of 185 (833261)
    05-18-2018 6:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 113 by JonF
    05-18-2018 6:24 PM


    Re: Cut the ad hominems.
    And Liberals.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 113 by JonF, posted 05-18-2018 6:24 PM JonF has not yet responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 28587
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 115 of 185 (833263)
    05-18-2018 9:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 111 by Percy
    05-18-2018 5:49 PM


    Re: Cut the ad hominems.
    Never been in a debate with a Muslim but I don't see why I wouldn't extend the benefit of the doubt in the relevant context. Same with Catholics and liberals.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 111 by Percy, posted 05-18-2018 5:49 PM Percy has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 116 by Theodoric, posted 05-18-2018 10:03 PM Faith has responded
     Message 119 by PaulK, posted 05-19-2018 12:41 AM Faith has not yet responded
     Message 120 by Percy, posted 05-19-2018 10:48 AM Faith has responded

        
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 5775
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005


    Message 116 of 185 (833265)
    05-18-2018 10:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
    05-18-2018 9:08 PM


    Re: Cut the ad hominems.
    I am gone for months and Faith still is making assertions with no evidence and basically continuing the comedy act.

    Never been in a debate with a Muslim but I don't see why I wouldn't extend the benefit of the doubt in the relevant context. Same with Catholics and liberals.

    Yeah right. Sure.


    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 115 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 9:08 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 117 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 11:12 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

        
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 28587
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.0


    (1)
    Message 117 of 185 (833267)
    05-18-2018 11:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 116 by Theodoric
    05-18-2018 10:03 PM


    Re: Cut the ad hominems.
    I missed you too, Theodoric. Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed your sabbatical or whatever it was.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 116 by Theodoric, posted 05-18-2018 10:03 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

        
    Capt Stormfield
    Member
    Posts: 324
    From: Vancouver Island
    Joined: 01-17-2009
    Member Rating: 3.3


    (1)
    Message 118 of 185 (833268)
    05-18-2018 11:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
    05-18-2018 12:21 PM


    Re: Cut the ad hominems.
    ...who believed in evolution...

    Therein lies the problem: You believe in things, you don't understand them or learn about them.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 87 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 12:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 14021
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 119 of 185 (833269)
    05-19-2018 12:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
    05-18-2018 9:08 PM


    Re: Cut the ad hominems.
    But you don’t trust Muslims. If you try to forcibly convert them they are allowed to pretend to go along with it!

    (Since you say you aren’t interested in forcibly converting them it’s hard to see why you’d worry about it. But you are)

    And even in debate you like to make false accusations. We’ve all seen how you treat Edge to use one egregious and common example.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 115 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 9:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

        
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 17361
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 120 of 185 (833293)
    05-19-2018 10:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
    05-18-2018 9:08 PM


    Re: Cut the ad hominems.
    Faith writes:

    Never been in a debate with a Muslim but I don't see why I wouldn't extend the benefit of the doubt in the relevant context. Same with Catholics and liberals.

    I've never seen you extend the benefit of the doubt to anyone you disagree with, regardless of context. Muslims are members of a murderous religion, Catholics aren't Christians, and liberals are taking away your rights.

    Bringing this into the thread's context, these same intolerant and inflexible attitudes extend to scientifically established understandings about Earth and life history and are responsible for the persistence of YEC beliefs.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 115 by Faith, posted 05-18-2018 9:08 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 121 by Faith, posted 05-19-2018 11:10 AM Percy has responded

        
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