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Author Topic:   Christian principles in relation to government
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 4 of 84 (833831)
05-27-2018 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
05-27-2018 4:08 AM


ust ran across this article, This Is Not of God’: When Anti-Trump Evangelicals Confront Their Brethren , about some evangelicals who call themselves Red Letter Christians who are protesting Trump's presidency as contrary to the spirit of Christ.
Your idea that Christianity applied only to individuals rather and nations is not something I agree with, and over the years, the Biblical support for you being wrong has been pointed out to you on occasion. But even if we granted you that, a pretty significant objection to Trump revolves around his own personal behavior. There is zero excuse for political leaders acting like that regardless of the supposed good they do.
All the "fanning of racial tension" I've seen originates on the Left and does not come from Trump
And this statement is just delusional. I am not going to bother with it other than to say that it is the height of wing nuttery to think that your side is pure and that anything to the left of that is akin to being a Nazi. Yet we know that is close to the view you hold.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 05-27-2018 4:08 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 19 of 84 (833870)
05-27-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
05-27-2018 1:26 PM


Re: Lets frame this topic
I don't want to defend conservatives as individuals or specimens of humanity, certainly not on the basis of "righteousness," and I hope to avoid like the plague anything having to do with Trump as a person because it's his policies that conservatives voted for, not his personality.
1) Sounds like you are trying to defend conservatives despite saying that you don't want to.
2) Why is Trump's non-Christian behavior not rightfully on topic.
3) You've already demonstrated that you cannot defend Trump's economic policies in a way that makes any sense. You are instead repeating what someone else told you. Tell me specifically how you think Trump's policies help any but the rich, and then maybe a meaningful discussion can ensue.
We used to be Christian, we are getting far from it.
If the irony here is not evident to you, I doubt anything I say can help.
I bit off a lot to chew in these two topic proposals and I'm going to have to move carefully and slowly if I'm to survive it.
My guess is that you cannot handle this topic. You are trying to defend the indefensible. But begging out of giving specifics is not the way to go.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 05-27-2018 1:26 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 05-28-2018 10:10 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 84 (833927)
05-28-2018 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
05-28-2018 10:22 AM


Re: So many basic fantasies in the OP.
I was talking about the historical situation Phat, I don't want to get into current specifics on this thread, I really don't want to argue politics here. I'd like to keep it general. Although I've already lost my original idea of what I wanted to do here so I should just stop and rethink it.
There is no point left. If you just want to post platitudes and then not defend those things when people point out that those things don't work when people ask specific questions, then what's left to talk about.
Beyond that, let's assume that your premise that Jesus words do not apply to governments is correct. Do you think that relieves the obligation for Christians when they vote or participate in government to apply Christian principles? Is Jesus really pleasef when you dismantle the health care system to give rich folks, who find it more difficult to be saved, even more money? I certainly do not.
I can respect someone who voted for Trump because they did not want Hilary picking Supreme Court Justices. But none of that translates into agreement with Trump's specific policies. If you don't have a clue about what those actually are, then why not put this thread out of our misery.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 10:22 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 44 of 84 (833945)
05-28-2018 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
05-28-2018 12:58 PM


Re: NT Government Principles
Keep in mind that your audience here at EvC does not recognize Biblical authority
For the purpose of this discussion, participants seem to be accepting that premise. What people are rejecting is the idea that people in government are not supposed to apply those principles. None of the quoted material Faith cites says anything like that.
Render under Ceaser meant that you pay your taxes but follow Jesus. It was about obeying the law of the state and not about what laws and policies Christians ought to support. Did Christians think getting thrown to lions was okay? Were they supposed to support that if their votes could make a difference?
What I see here is simply another excuse for individual Christians not to follow Jesus teachings. I would throw that excuse on the same heap that I would throw Dispensationalism. And then I'd take a match to that heap.
Have you ever heard of Jubilee? Have you heard of the direction to leave portions of each crop in the fields for gleaning? Those are examples of commands to a nation of individual and not to just individuals about taking care of their poorer neighbors. The entire premise of this thread is hogwash. It is not supported in the Bible. It is that lack of support and not lack of respect for Biblical authority that is being expressed here.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 05-28-2018 12:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2018 2:02 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:15 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 84 (833962)
05-28-2018 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
05-28-2018 3:15 PM


Re: forgiving whose enemies?
The great majority of Christians think the Red Letter people are wrong.
So what? Assuming that you could even prove that dubious assertion. Most people who think they are following Christ are actually failing to do so. So what do numbers mean?
Jubilee and leaving part of your field for the poor is to individuals but it's a law directed to the entire community of the people of God. Jesus is always only talking to His individual followers, and how could He be addressing people in this fallen world anyway who don't follow His teachings?
Yes. How is this some kind of refutation of my point? It is not.
Is it necessary in your mind that acting as head of state she should forgive a traitor to her country?
Is that what we are debating about? Policies that are traitorous to this country? Or are we discussing economic policies that do something other than favor the wealthy?
Your response is laughable.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:29 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 50 of 84 (833965)
05-28-2018 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
05-28-2018 3:29 PM


Re: forgiving whose enemies?
I thought we were debating the applicability of Jesus' teachings to government in contrast to the Old Testament laws.
We are instead talking about Christians and their own decisions. We are not talking about a secular government that owes no responsibility to the people. What is in question are the choices of evangelic Christians.
I think the example of forgiving the traitor illustrates my general point, that the Red Letter people are wrong.
Well, your thoughts are not logical. Using an example of something bad, and something which the Red Letter people are not advocating does not demonstrate that they are wrong. Treating folks within your borders as Christ would have you is not traitorous. You are raising a red herring. Let's turn that around. It a government official was involved in activity deterimental to this country, are Christians obliged to just go along?
Do you actually have a point?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:41 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 84 (833968)
05-28-2018 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
05-28-2018 3:41 PM


Re: forgiving whose enemies?
Nobody is advocating mistreating them in any way at all, but if they are here illegally, by disobeying our laws, they need to be dealt with as lawbreakers
The question here is about what our laws ought to be Faith and how we ought to administer them. Please keep up. For example, should we be separating immigrant children from their parents if we don't have to do that?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:46 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 84 (833971)
05-28-2018 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
05-28-2018 3:46 PM


Re: forgiving whose enemies?
I told you what our laws ought to be. Please follow the argument.
That is not the last word on what is right and wrong. Please apply some Christian principles at some point in real life.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 9:37 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 56 of 84 (833974)
05-28-2018 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Modulous
05-28-2018 4:29 PM


but 'tear families apart and keep them separated for months or years' surely runs afoul of the personal mercy Jesus implored all of us, including those with executive power, to use.
[sarcasm mode on]
Yeah, but what if they are making America browner with their very presence in this country?
[and off]

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Modulous, posted 05-28-2018 4:29 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 05-28-2018 5:11 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 9:30 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 63 of 84 (833994)
05-28-2018 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
05-28-2018 10:24 PM


PROVE IT. Such an accusation needs to be proved.
Actually, you have both made accusations, and neither of you has proven them. If you want to blame Obama and the Democrats, you owe us proof. Yes, it is reasonable for you to ask for proof. But you owe us the same thing.
In this case, however, it is pretty easy to determine what is going on. The Trump administration has recently decided that they are going to prosecute parents if they are caught crossing the border; even if they present themselves to authorities and are asking for asylum. That is the Trump administration's choice. Obama and his administration made different choices. As a result, he is going to have to separate families from the children.
We also know, and you yourself can verify, that officials in the Trump administration have been discussing a policy of separating children from their parents for over a year. If I recall correctly, we've even discussed that here.
So, we know who is actually lying here. Dr. Jones is absolutely right. It is not Obama's fault.
If you really care, you won't have any problem checking this out. But why wasn't Obama doing the same thing if it is his fault and his policy?
The Trump administration has shown that it’s willing eager, actually to go to great lengths to limit illegal immigration into the United States, from building a multi-billion-dollar border wall with Mexico to escalated roundups that grab those living here without permission even if they have no
quote:
When parents and children cross the border and tell border patrol agents they would like to apply for asylum, they often are taken into custody while their request is considered. Under the Obama administration, the families were usually released to the care of a relative or organization, or held in a family detention center.
But under President Trump, the parents usually mothers traveling without their spouses who sneak across the border then turn themselves in are increasing being charged with the misdemeanor crime of entering the country illegally, advocates say. And since that is a criminal charge, not a civil violation of immigration codes, the children are spirited away to a youth detention center with no explanation. Sometimes, parents and children are inexplicably separated even when no charges are lodged.
Activists believe the government is splitting families to send a message of deterrence: Dare to seek asylum at the border and we'll take your child.
You could try to find out the truth on your own. If you don't want to believe my source, then find one of your own. But it is pretty clear that Trump is lying... Again.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 10:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 84 (833999)
05-28-2018 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
05-28-2018 11:04 PM


That I can believe. Lying no.
Why would he just spew out the idea that it was Obama's fault then? What on earth is the reason for making accusations like that? Trump is either a liar or an idiot.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 11:04 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 05-29-2018 7:31 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 68 of 84 (834003)
05-29-2018 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
05-28-2018 9:37 PM


Re: forgiving whose enemies?
If you want Biblical principles for running a government they are abundant in the Old Testament, and thoroughly merciful and humane laws they are too.
Are you for Christian principles or not? In a democracy, you don't just tolerate or accept government. You have a say in picking your government. You don't get to use the excuse that Nero is just being Nero.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 9:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 84 (834004)
05-29-2018 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by AZPaul3
05-29-2018 2:19 AM


AZPaul3 writes:
who can see the lies right in front of their faces if they just open their eyes, so vehemently support him.
Thanks for pointing this out. I had forgotten about Trump's chewing out of Nielsen over this issue prior to blaming Obama. If this is not a flat-out lie, it is fiction told with reckless regard for the truth.
Well, to be fair, Faith claimed not to support the policy when she was swallowing what is clearly a lie by Trump. Let's see if she changes her mind not that she knows that it is really a trump policy:
Faith writes:
I believe Trump made it clear that he doesn't approve of separating families at the border, and that this is done under Obama's law, not his. I think he should have anticipated that and corrected it a while back myself.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by AZPaul3, posted 05-29-2018 2:19 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 84 (834043)
05-29-2018 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
05-29-2018 10:49 AM


Re: Take it to the Trump Bashing Thread
You may be right about some of it, probably are, but I do not care because I know there is a sick agenda behind most of it and I don't want the job of trying to sort it out.
You don't have to do any sorting. It's already been done.
Take it to the Trump Presidency Bashing thread.
This thread is about Red Letter Christians criticizing Trump. It is going to be difficult to declare Trump criticism off topic here, because those criticisms often serve as examples of Trump doing things that no evangelical ought to support, but which they surely do. Your wish won't be granted.
Kudos on not falling into the same category by finding this particular instance unacceptable.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 05-29-2018 10:49 AM Faith has not replied

  
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