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Author Topic:   Christian principles in relation to government
Faith
Member
Posts: 29147
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 84 (833958)
05-28-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by NoNukes
05-28-2018 1:16 PM


forgiving whose enemies?
Have you ever heard of Jubilee? Have you heard of the direction to leave portions of each crop in the fields for gleaning? Those are examples of commands to a nation of individual and not to just individuals about taking care of their poorer neighbors. The entire premise of this thread is hogwash. It is not supported in the Bible. It is that lack of support and not lack of respect for Biblical authority that is being expressed here.

The great majority of Christians think the Red Letter people are wrong. Jubilee and leaving part of your field for the poor is to individuals but it's a law directed to the entire community of the people of God. Jesus is always only talking to His individual followers, and how could He be addressing people in this fallen world anyway who don't follow His teachings?

Here's an example from the PBS series "The Crown," where the young Queen Elizabeth wants to do the Christian thing toward her Nazi sympathizing Uncle, the King who had abdicated his throne to marry a divorcee but also publicly aligned himself with Hitler. She has an audience with Billy Graham and asks him about the necessity of forgiving our enemies without explaining the situation she had in mind. Graham gave her the advice I think he would give to her as an individual thinking about a personal enemy, that forgiveness is necessary, but I have to suspect if he knew the circumstance he wouldn't give that advice.

Is it necessary in your mind that acting as head of state she should forgive a traitor to her country? Can she forgive an enemy of the state who isn't her personal enemy?

I don't think so, do you?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 1:16 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 3:26 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10856
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 47 of 84 (833962)
05-28-2018 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
05-28-2018 3:15 PM


Re: forgiving whose enemies?
The great majority of Christians think the Red Letter people are wrong.

So what? Assuming that you could even prove that dubious assertion. Most people who think they are following Christ are actually failing to do so. So what do numbers mean?

Jubilee and leaving part of your field for the poor is to individuals but it's a law directed to the entire community of the people of God. Jesus is always only talking to His individual followers, and how could He be addressing people in this fallen world anyway who don't follow His teachings?

Yes. How is this some kind of refutation of my point? It is not.

Is it necessary in your mind that acting as head of state she should forgive a traitor to her country?

Is that what we are debating about? Policies that are traitorous to this country? Or are we discussing economic policies that do something other than favor the wealthy?

Your response is laughable.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:15 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:29 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29147
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 48 of 84 (833963)
05-28-2018 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by NoNukes
05-28-2018 3:26 PM


Re: forgiving whose enemies?
I thought we were debating the applicability of Jesus' teachings to government in contrast to the Old Testament laws. I think the example of forgiving the traitor illustrates my general point, that the Red Letter people are wrong. Sure, you can apply the principles of Jubilee and leaving something for the poor from the Old Testament, but that is not what the Red Letter people are talking about, which should have been clear from the OP.

Perhaps I misunderstood you.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 3:26 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 3:34 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29147
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 84 (833964)
05-28-2018 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Modulous
05-28-2018 1:15 PM



Trump is an individual, the legislature is composed of individuals and the voters are individuals. And the Gospel is the fulfilment of the Law isn't it?

If Korea should bomb San Francisco, should Trump turn the other cheek on behalf of the nation?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Modulous, posted 05-28-2018 1:15 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Modulous, posted 05-28-2018 4:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10856
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 50 of 84 (833965)
05-28-2018 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
05-28-2018 3:29 PM


Re: forgiving whose enemies?
I thought we were debating the applicability of Jesus' teachings to government in contrast to the Old Testament laws.

We are instead talking about Christians and their own decisions. We are not talking about a secular government that owes no responsibility to the people. What is in question are the choices of evangelic Christians.

I think the example of forgiving the traitor illustrates my general point, that the Red Letter people are wrong.

Well, your thoughts are not logical. Using an example of something bad, and something which the Red Letter people are not advocating does not demonstrate that they are wrong. Treating folks within your borders as Christ would have you is not traitorous. You are raising a red herring. Let's turn that around. It a government official was involved in activity deterimental to this country, are Christians obliged to just go along?

Do you actually have a point?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:41 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29147
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 84 (833967)
05-28-2018 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by NoNukes
05-28-2018 3:34 PM


Re: forgiving whose enemies?
Treating folks within your borders as Christ would have you is not traitorous.

Nobody is advocating mistreating them in any way at all, but if they are here illegally, by disobeying our laws, they need to be dealt with as lawbreakers. Christ says nothing about punishing anyone because He is not addressing government and Law, but governments have the job of punishing lawbreakers.

There is really something wrong with YOUR logic.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 3:34 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 3:44 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10856
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 52 of 84 (833968)
05-28-2018 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
05-28-2018 3:41 PM


Re: forgiving whose enemies?
Nobody is advocating mistreating them in any way at all, but if they are here illegally, by disobeying our laws, they need to be dealt with as lawbreakers

The question here is about what our laws ought to be Faith and how we ought to administer them. Please keep up. For example, should we be separating immigrant children from their parents if we don't have to do that?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:41 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:46 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29147
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 84 (833970)
05-28-2018 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by NoNukes
05-28-2018 3:44 PM


Re: forgiving whose enemies?
I told you what our laws ought to be. Please follow the argument.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 3:44 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 3:48 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10856
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 54 of 84 (833971)
05-28-2018 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
05-28-2018 3:46 PM


Re: forgiving whose enemies?
I told you what our laws ought to be. Please follow the argument.

That is not the last word on what is right and wrong. Please apply some Christian principles at some point in real life.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:46 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 9:37 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(3)
Message 55 of 84 (833973)
05-28-2018 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
05-28-2018 3:34 PM


If Korea should bomb San Francisco, should Trump turn the other cheek on behalf of the nation?

Fortunately I don't have to struggle with the problem.

Christians have historically more or less abandoned the Bible for guidance on this and have reverted to Greek wisdom on the matter. I suppose Jesus should have anticipated this problem better since it would dominate his post resurrected world.

I do know that if Trump committed mass murder against the citizens of the government who attacked the USA, it would fall foul of Jus ad bellum and regardless of 'it was in the national interest' he would be condemned by most Christians and Atheists alike.

It's one thing to correctly react - it's another thing to react in an ungodly fashion.

'Deport the undocumented' may survive a certain theological perspective but 'tear families apart and keep them separated for months or years' surely runs afoul of the personal mercy Jesus implored all of us, including those with executive power, to use.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 3:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 4:53 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10856
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 56 of 84 (833974)
05-28-2018 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Modulous
05-28-2018 4:29 PM


but 'tear families apart and keep them separated for months or years' surely runs afoul of the personal mercy Jesus implored all of us, including those with executive power, to use.

[sarcasm mode on]
Yeah, but what if they are making America browner with their very presence in this country?
[and off]


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Modulous, posted 05-28-2018 4:29 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 05-28-2018 5:11 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 9:30 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30701
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 57 of 84 (833975)
05-28-2018 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by NoNukes
05-28-2018 4:53 PM


And they aren't Christians, they are Roman Catholics.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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 Message 56 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 4:53 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29147
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 58 of 84 (833987)
05-28-2018 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by NoNukes
05-28-2018 4:53 PM


I believe Trump made it clear that he doesn't approve of separating families at the border, and that this is done under Obama's law, not his. I think he should have anticipated that and corrected it a while back myself.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 4:53 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by DrJones*, posted 05-28-2018 10:22 PM Faith has responded
 Message 70 by JonF, posted 05-29-2018 3:50 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29147
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 84 (833988)
05-28-2018 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by NoNukes
05-28-2018 3:48 PM


Re: forgiving whose enemies?
Look, this thread is about the theology of the Red Letter group which I'm arguing is clearly wrong and I haven't seen a reasonable argument to the contrary. Jesus did not address government or legal questions, He addressed His own disciples, period. His teachings were quite enough down the centuries to change the face of civilization for the better through individual action. If you want Biblical principles for running a government they are abundant in the Old Testament, and thoroughly merciful and humane laws they are too.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 3:48 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2018 3:12 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1708
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 60 of 84 (833991)
05-28-2018 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
05-28-2018 9:30 PM


I believe Trump made it clear that he doesn't approve of separating families at the border, and that this is done under Obama's law, not his

and unsurpisingly he's lying about this.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 9:30 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 10:24 PM DrJones* has responded

  
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