Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 89 (8843 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-25-2018 9:17 AM
272 online now:
edge, JonF, kjsimons, PaulK, Percy (Admin), RAZD (6 members, 266 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: MrTim
Post Volume:
Total: 834,305 Year: 9,128/29,783 Month: 1,375/1,977 Week: 68/445 Day: 14/54 Hour: 1/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1234
5
6Next
Author Topic:   Christian principles in relation to government
Faith
Member
Posts: 28587
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 61 of 81 (833992)
05-28-2018 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by DrJones*
05-28-2018 10:22 PM


PROVE IT. Such an accusation needs to be proved.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by DrJones*, posted 05-28-2018 10:22 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by DrJones*, posted 05-28-2018 10:33 PM Faith has responded
 Message 63 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 10:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1706
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 62 of 81 (833993)
05-28-2018 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
05-28-2018 10:24 PM


certainly:

https://www.vanityfair.com/...separation-policy-on-democrats

the policy was put into place under GWB. Under Obama, children were kept with their parent if they came in with a parent. It was the Trump administration's decision to remove children from parents. Trump's chief of staff told NPR that the change in policy was to provide a tough deterrent to illegal immigration. Of course there is the possibility that Trump isn't lying, he may just be totally unaware of what his employees are doing.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 10:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 11:04 PM DrJones* has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10702
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 63 of 81 (833994)
05-28-2018 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
05-28-2018 10:24 PM


PROVE IT. Such an accusation needs to be proved.

Actually, you have both made accusations, and neither of you has proven them. If you want to blame Obama and the Democrats, you owe us proof. Yes, it is reasonable for you to ask for proof. But you owe us the same thing.

In this case, however, it is pretty easy to determine what is going on. The Trump administration has recently decided that they are going to prosecute parents if they are caught crossing the border; even if they present themselves to authorities and are asking for asylum. That is the Trump administration's choice. Obama and his administration made different choices. As a result, he is going to have to separate families from the children.

We also know, and you yourself can verify, that officials in the Trump administration have been discussing a policy of separating children from their parents for over a year. If I recall correctly, we've even discussed that here.

So, we know who is actually lying here. Dr. Jones is absolutely right. It is not Obama's fault.

If you really care, you won't have any problem checking this out. But why wasn't Obama doing the same thing if it is his fault and his policy?

http://www.latimes.com/...er-asylum-ice-201802305-story.html

quote:
When parents and children cross the border and tell border patrol agents they would like to apply for asylum, they often are taken into custody while their request is considered. Under the Obama administration, the families were usually released to the care of a relative or organization, or held in a family detention center.

But under President Trump, the parents — usually mothers traveling without their spouses — who sneak across the border then turn themselves in are increasing being charged with the misdemeanor crime of entering the country illegally, advocates say. And since that is a criminal charge, not a civil violation of immigration codes, the children are spirited away to a youth detention center with no explanation. Sometimes, parents and children are inexplicably separated even when no charges are lodged.

Activists believe the government is splitting families to send a message of deterrence: Dare to seek asylum at the border and we'll take your child.


You could try to find out the truth on your own. If you don't want to believe my source, then find one of your own. But it is pretty clear that Trump is lying... Again.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 10:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28587
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 64 of 81 (833995)
05-28-2018 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by DrJones*
05-28-2018 10:33 PM


That I can believe. Lying no.
Thanks.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by DrJones*, posted 05-28-2018 10:33 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by DrJones*, posted 05-28-2018 11:46 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 11:57 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 67 by AZPaul3, posted 05-29-2018 2:19 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1706
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 65 of 81 (833998)
05-28-2018 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
05-28-2018 11:04 PM


so you'd rather he'd be so incompetent that he doesn't know what his right hand man is saying to the media? that he'd be so uninformed that he'd say it was a law (that the democrats needed to change even though his party is in control of the house, the senate and the presidency)instead of a policy?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 11:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10702
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 66 of 81 (833999)
05-28-2018 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
05-28-2018 11:04 PM


That I can believe. Lying no.

Why would he just spew out the idea that it was Obama's fault then? What on earth is the reason for making accusations like that? Trump is either a liar or an idiot.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 11:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 05-29-2018 7:31 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3456
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


(3)
Message 67 of 81 (834001)
05-29-2018 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
05-28-2018 11:04 PM


That I can believe. Lying no.

He is not only a liar but a pathological megalomanic liar.

quote:
During that cabinet meeting in which he berated DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen, Trump was furious because he didn’t think she was totally on board with his demand that children be separated from their parents if they’re caught at the border.

http://www.patheos.com/...esponsibility-for-his-own-policies

http://www.latimes.com/...order-crossers-20180507-story.html

https://www.factcheck.org/...-own-border-policy-on-democrats

And history from last year:

https://www.reuters.com/...mmigration-children-idUSKBN16A2ES

http://immigrationimpact.com/...rant-children-parents-border

It is bad enough when the president so blatantly and knowingly lies to us all but it is even worse when people, who can see the lies right in front of their faces if they just open their eyes, so vehemently support him.

And don't try to tell us he didn't know what his lackeys were doing when the history show us HE initiated, no ... demanded, this evil policy.

Good,god, woman, you cannot be this dense!

Edited by AZPaul3, : more lies

Edited by AZPaul3, : heartfelt revulsion


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 11:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2018 3:19 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10702
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 68 of 81 (834003)
05-29-2018 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
05-28-2018 9:37 PM


Re: forgiving whose enemies?
If you want Biblical principles for running a government they are abundant in the Old Testament, and thoroughly merciful and humane laws they are too.

Are you for Christian principles or not? In a democracy, you don't just tolerate or accept government. You have a say in picking your government. You don't get to use the excuse that Nero is just being Nero.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 9:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10702
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 69 of 81 (834004)
05-29-2018 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by AZPaul3
05-29-2018 2:19 AM


AZPaul3 writes:

who can see the lies right in front of their faces if they just open their eyes, so vehemently support him.

Thanks for pointing this out. I had forgotten about Trump's chewing out of Nielsen over this issue prior to blaming Obama. If this is not a flat-out lie, it is fiction told with reckless regard for the truth.

Well, to be fair, Faith claimed not to support the policy when she was swallowing what is clearly a lie by Trump. Let's see if she changes her mind not that she knows that it is really a trump policy:

Faith writes:

I believe Trump made it clear that he doesn't approve of separating families at the border, and that this is done under Obama's law, not his. I think he should have anticipated that and corrected it a while back myself.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by AZPaul3, posted 05-29-2018 2:19 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4142
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 70 of 81 (834005)
05-29-2018 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
05-28-2018 9:30 PM


Trump lied. There is no law. It never happened under Obama. It's purely a Trump administration policy.

Lord, you're gullible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 05-28-2018 9:30 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2018 5:02 AM JonF has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5785
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 71 of 81 (834006)
05-29-2018 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by JonF
05-29-2018 3:50 AM


Faith writes:

Lord, you're gullible.

She's not gullible, gullibility is passive; she's actively seeking out this crap and rejecting evidence she doesn't like - she's a motivated thinker. Pretty much the archetype of it.

quote:
The processes of motivated reasoning are a type of inferred justification strategy which is used to mitigate cognitive dissonance. When people form and cling to false beliefs despite overwhelming evidence, the phenomenon is labeled "motivated reasoning". In other words, "rather than search rationally for information that either confirms or disconfirms a particular belief, people actually seek out information that confirms what they already believe".[2] This is "a form of implicit emotion regulation in which the brain converges on judgments that minimize negative and maximize positive affect states associated with threat to or attainment of motives".[3]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoning

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by JonF, posted 05-29-2018 3:50 AM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 05-29-2018 7:34 AM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30430
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 72 of 81 (834012)
05-29-2018 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by NoNukes
05-28-2018 11:57 PM


on the character of il Donald
NoNukes writes:

Trump is either a liar or an idiot.

That seems a false dichotomy. The evidence seems to show he is an idiot and a liar and a boor and a fascist with none of Mussolini's graces.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 05-28-2018 11:57 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30430
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 73 of 81 (834013)
05-29-2018 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Tangle
05-29-2018 5:02 AM


Ever hear of Alternative Facts?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2018 5:02 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2018 8:28 AM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5785
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 74 of 81 (834014)
05-29-2018 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by jar
05-29-2018 7:34 AM


Jar writes:

Ever hear of Alternative Facts?

Sure, alternative facts feed motivated thinking.

The more crap that's fed into the intertubes, the easier it is for bigots, idiots and fundamentalists to find the garbage they need to support their crazy beliefs. All facts are equal to them, they just choose the ones they like and don't try to validate them.

Trump can say anything - literally anything - and it becomes a 'fact' to these people. He knows it. Unfortunately there are more stupid people than clever people but they all get the same vote.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 05-29-2018 7:34 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 05-29-2018 8:38 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 78 by xongsmith, posted 05-29-2018 1:59 PM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30430
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 75 of 81 (834015)
05-29-2018 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tangle
05-29-2018 8:28 AM


true not alternative fact
quote:
I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters.

The really sad thing is that is an accurate analysis of his support base.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2018 8:28 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Prev1234
5
6Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018