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Author Topic:   Motley Flood Thread (formerly Historical Science Mystification of Public)
Faith
Member
Posts: 28930
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 856 of 877 (835510)
06-24-2018 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 854 by jar
06-24-2018 7:38 AM


Re: How did the flood produce wind blown cross bedded sand dunes
They aren't wind blown.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 854 by jar, posted 06-24-2018 7:38 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 867 by jar, posted 06-24-2018 9:24 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 868 by edge, posted 06-24-2018 9:26 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28930
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 857 of 877 (835511)
06-24-2018 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 851 by PaulK
06-24-2018 2:29 AM


Re: Floodists problems
It’s a bit hard to consider something that we have no way of knowing. We can’t even know if there is a God to have an opinion.

But I’m pretty sure that if there is He’d prefer us to honestly investigate the evidence instead of inventing lies to support false dogma. But if you feel differently please make the case.

Inventing hypotheses is not inventing lies, and if the Bible is correctly understood as to the timing of the Flood -- it's possible that it's not but I have no reason to doubt it at present -- then any evidence that contradicts it is not something we could "honestly investigate" and God would not "prefer" that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 851 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2018 2:29 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 858 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2018 8:44 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14196
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 858 of 877 (835513)
06-24-2018 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 857 by Faith
06-24-2018 8:31 AM


Re: Floodists problems
quote:

Inventing hypotheses is not inventing lies

I was thinking of inventing “evidence”, such as the assertion that there is no sign of disturbance before all the strata were deposited.

quote:

...and if the Bible is correctly understood as to the timing of the Flood -- it's possible that it's not but I have no reason to doubt it at present -- then any evidence that contradicts it is not something we could "honestly investigate"

Of course we could. Even you could honestly investigate evidence if supported your claims. Well, perhaps not in your case.

The problem for you is that honest investigation of the evidence shows no Flood and an old Earth. And that gives rational people plenty of reason to doubt a literal reading of the Flood story.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 857 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 8:31 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 860 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 8:50 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 862 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 8:55 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28930
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 859 of 877 (835514)
06-24-2018 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 852 by PaulK
06-24-2018 2:32 AM


Re: Floodists problems
I'm not trying to prove anything to you about evolution and wasn't claiming to do so, simply stating what I believe to be the case. It is based on the fact that we actually see evolution occurring all the time (what you all call evolution although it's not, it's just variation within a Kind), and if macroevolution were true, which it isn't, while it would probably take longer than what we observe of microevolution there's no reason to think it would take millions of years. Thousands would already be overkill. But I have no interest in trying to prove this on this thread at this time.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 852 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2018 2:32 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 861 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2018 8:54 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28930
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 860 of 877 (835515)
06-24-2018 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 858 by PaulK
06-24-2018 8:44 AM


Re: Floodists problems
Unfortunately for YOU the evidence DOES support the Flood, starting with the simple fact of the strata and the fossils which you all love to deny is evidence for the Flood but is glaring in-your-face evidence for it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 858 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2018 8:44 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 864 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2018 8:59 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14196
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 861 of 877 (835517)
06-24-2018 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 859 by Faith
06-24-2018 8:45 AM


Re: Floodists problems
quote:

I'm not trying to prove anything to you about evolution and wasn't claiming to do so, simply stating what I believe to be the case.

Nevertheless your opinions are still theoretical speculations at odds with the evidence.

quote:

It is based on the fact that we actually see evolution occurring all the time, and if macroevolution were true, which it isn't, while it would probably take longer than what we observe of microevolution there's no reason to think it would take millions of years. Thousands would already be overkill.

Really? Then why do we find recognisable animalsin Egyptian tomb paintings, for instance. There is a reason why fixity of species was the dominant view before we got to grips with the fossil record. Most species in the wild don’t change that much, even over a time scale of thousands of years. Just because rapid change is possible doesn’t mean that it happens all the time. It doesn’t. That’s why it is remarkable when we notice it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 859 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 8:45 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 863 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 8:57 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28930
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 862 of 877 (835518)
06-24-2018 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 858 by PaulK
06-24-2018 8:44 AM


Re: Floodists problems
I was thinking of inventing “evidence”, such as the assertion that there is no sign of disturbance before all the strata were deposited.

That happenes to be true and I've mujstered a lot of evidence for it and intend to muster more but probably not for the biased readers of EvC. It is you who are inventing lies by making up such disturbances from ambiguous examples like the UK cross section, misinterpreting the very very few examples where it might be true, and ignoring all the places where it is clear that there has been no such disturbance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 858 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2018 8:44 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 865 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2018 9:08 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28930
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 863 of 877 (835519)
06-24-2018 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 861 by PaulK
06-24-2018 8:54 AM


Re: Floodists problems
What? Most species DON'T change much, so what? When they do, brought about by population splits and reproductive isolation, it doesn't take long.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2018 8:54 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 866 by PaulK, posted 06-24-2018 9:11 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14196
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 864 of 877 (835520)
06-24-2018 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 860 by Faith
06-24-2018 8:50 AM


Re: Floodists problems
quote:

Unfortunately for YOU the evidence DOES support the Flood, starting with the simple fact of the strata and the fossils which you all love to deny is evidence for the Flood but is glaring in-your-face evidence for it.

Shouldn’t you be mortifying your sins rather than indulging them ?

But thanks for proving my point about your lack of honesty.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 860 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 8:50 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14196
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 865 of 877 (835521)
06-24-2018 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 862 by Faith
06-24-2018 8:55 AM


Re: Floodists problems
quote:

That happenes to be true and I've mujstered a lot of evidence for it and intend to muster more but probably not for the biased readers of EvC.

No, you haven’t mustered any evidence for it. Inventing desperate excuses to explain away the evidence against it doesn’t count.

And I can understand why you wouldn’t want to present your evidence here - we’ll see through your lies as usual.

quote:

It is you who are inventing lies by making up such disturbances from ambiguous examples like the UK cross section

They aren’t at all ambiguous. You just refuse to see them.

quote:

misinterpreting the very very few examples where it might be true,

You mean disagreeing with your assertions just because we do have strong evidence to the contrary. And since examples are common enough that we have more than one in both the regions you chose to focus on it hardly seems thst they are rare.

quote:

ignoring all the places where it is clear that there has been no such disturbance.

Which places would those be ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 862 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 8:55 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14196
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 866 of 877 (835522)
06-24-2018 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 863 by Faith
06-24-2018 8:57 AM


Re: Floodists problems
quote:

What? Most species DON'T change much, so what?

You should try thinking things through. If rapid change is a rare and unusual event it will still take a long time - on average - for evolution to produce major changes. The “time needed” by any sensible reckoning must take that into account rather than simply ignoring it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 863 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 8:57 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30519
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 867 of 877 (835524)
06-24-2018 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 856 by Faith
06-24-2018 8:23 AM


Re: How did the flood produce wind blown cross bedded sand dunes
So absolutely no response other than denial and more dishonesty it seems.

Yet the reality is that they are wind bown sand dunes and we can see the same thing happening today.

Your continual denial of reality does not strengthen your unsupported assertions.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 856 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 8:23 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4392
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 868 of 877 (835525)
06-24-2018 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 856 by Faith
06-24-2018 8:23 AM


Re: How did the flood produce wind blown cross bedded sand dunes
They aren't wind blown.

Another unsupported assertion.

Please make your case.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 856 by Faith, posted 06-24-2018 8:23 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4392
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 869 of 877 (835530)
06-24-2018 10:16 AM


My concluding remarks are a simple suggestion for Faith.

Here is a link to the GeoChristian blog. It's a bit dated, but it explains in Christian terms, why YEC geology does not make sense.

https://geochristian.com/category/geology/

Why not read the whole thing and come back refreshed and maybe a new outlook?


  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10887
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 870 of 877 (835531)
06-24-2018 10:25 AM


Summation Statement
I summarize by requoting from the 4 posts which I had here at this thread:
Phat, addressing Faith writes:

Strict Creationism starts with the premise that God exists, the Bible is His revelation, and the Creator wrote His name and signature on our hearts and on and in the rocks. Thus, one would seek evidence of such a signature. You seem to think that one-day such evidence will be found and we all will slap our heads in amazement and bow to the Creator joyfully and willingly---which for the sake of argument is theoretically possible. Currently, however, for folks like edge, the science that he was taught is his most reliable tool. He has little economic or spiritual incentive to change his approach to observations within nature when he has already invested so much of his life into learning the tried and true disciplines which are his very livelihood.

I enjoy reading Faiths attempts at better expressing her understanding, though when the comments between her and others get personal it crosses a line of disrespect. Forum Guidelines

As Faith is our lone creationist, we need to understand how her method of reasoning differs from secular science. The cartoon which I often use explains the argument fully, in my mind.

Phat, addressing RAZD writes:

Imagine how a Creationist thinks, however. To them, there is a basic understanding of what is traditional secular science and what is a mystery. They see no fiction. They are searching for something that the secular scientist is not searching for nor has been trained to search for.
They claim that secular science is blinded since the secular scientist sees no need to search any differently.


Which is why these types of debates at EvC will always end the same.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

  
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