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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6183
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1516 of 1581 (840218)
09-25-2018 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1510 by Faith
09-25-2018 6:59 AM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Oh we've got many, many more than that Faith. And, of course, quite a lot of them were Catholic too.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1510 by Faith, posted 09-25-2018 6:59 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1520 by Faith, posted 09-25-2018 8:45 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15414
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1517 of 1581 (840219)
09-25-2018 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1515 by jaywill
09-25-2018 12:21 PM


jaywill writes:

I wonder how many years of evolution have to take place before such an opinion could graduate up to the level of asinine.


You have it backwards (no surprises there). Primates and donkeys branched from the same mammal root but primates evolved more intelligence.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1515 by jaywill, posted 09-25-2018 12:21 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1518 of 1581 (840223)
09-25-2018 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1514 by jar
09-25-2018 8:14 AM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
We have discussed these topics at length many times here at EvC and still have not resolved our basic differences regarding our particular Christian beliefs, dogmas, and literal interpreted meanings which are the basis for our faith.

I can see the argument over the necessity of Jesus being only human for the story to have any meaning. To merely anthropomorphize God as a God/Man means that His sacrifice was no big deal, according to you. To portray Jesus as a fallible human, however, shows us no standard of perfection which we believe that God demands from humanity. If He couldn't do it, none of us ever will.

If, however, God is grading/judging/evaluating us by weighing what we could have done versus what we actually did and do, your argument begins to become more clear. Not saying I agree with it just yet.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1514 by jar, posted 09-25-2018 8:14 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1519 by jar, posted 09-25-2018 5:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1521 by Faith, posted 09-25-2018 8:56 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1519 of 1581 (840225)
09-25-2018 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1518 by Phat
09-25-2018 4:32 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Phat writes:

I can see the argument over the necessity of Jesus being only human for the story to have any meaning. To merely anthropomorphize God as a God/Man means that His sacrifice was no big deal, according to you. To portray Jesus as a fallible human, however, shows us no standard of perfection which we believe that God demands from humanity. If He couldn't do it, none of us ever will.

If, however, God is grading/judging/evaluating us by weighing what we could have done versus what we actually did and do, your argument begins to become more clear. Not saying I agree with it just yet.

And that is where the Mat 25 story is important.

You cannot earn forgiveness through works but you can loose forgiveness by NOT doing works.

I believe that after I die I will be judged and understand I have absolutely no way to know the outcome of such judgement until it happens.

That means no matter what I believe, no matter what I profess, no matter what I claim, I will never know beforehand any outcome.

So what can I know? I can know that what Jesus (and Buddha and Confucius and Mencius and Lao Tzu and many others) taught, that I should do what I can to help others while I'm alive, is my sole duty. That at least makes life today slightly better for all.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1518 by Phat, posted 09-25-2018 4:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1520 of 1581 (840227)
09-25-2018 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1516 by Tangle
09-25-2018 12:23 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Oh we've got many, many more than that Faith. And, of course, quite a lot of them were Catholic too.

My list is of people who share a theology, and again I doubt you are familiar with even half of them, or read any of them at all. However, the Catholic Lord Acton had some valuable things to say. And G.K. Chesterton too.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1516 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2018 12:23 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1522 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 1:15 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1521 of 1581 (840228)
09-25-2018 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1518 by Phat
09-25-2018 4:32 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
I can see the argument over the necessity of Jesus being only human for the story to have any meaning....

As you go on to say Jesus was no FALLIBLE human being, he was the only perfectly sinless human being since Adam and Eve prior to the Fall. He did not inherit the sin of the Fall since He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was therefore a sinless man. Capable of being tempted by the sin that tempts all of us but strong enough to resist it.

To portray Jesus as a fallible human, however, shows us no standard of perfection which we believe that God demands from humanity. If He couldn't do it, none of us ever will.

True, we're all fallen, and all it takes is one little sin to send us to Hell because God is holy and cannot have sin in His presence. Jesus had to be perfectly sinless in order to qualify to be the Mediator between humanity and God, whose death could pay for our sins. He had to be "without blemish" as the animals were required to be that were sacrificed for the sins of the people in Old Testament Israel. One sin would have disqualified Him.

If, however, God is grading/judging/evaluating us by weighing what we could have done versus what we actually did and do, your argument begins to become more clear. Not saying I agree with it just yet.

That argument is utterly unscriptural. What I say above can be documented in scripture.;

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1518 by Phat, posted 09-25-2018 4:32 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6183
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1522 of 1581 (840230)
09-26-2018 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1520 by Faith
09-25-2018 8:45 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Faith writes:

My list is of people who share a theology, and again I doubt you are familiar with even half of them, or read any of them at all. However, the Catholic Lord Acton had some valuable things to say. And G.K. Chesterton too.

No-one has special knowledge Faith. No-one. All everyone is doing is a form of literary criticism of you book and making stuff up about it that they like or dislike. There is nothing else to go on.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1520 by Faith, posted 09-25-2018 8:45 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1523 by Faith, posted 09-26-2018 4:40 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 1523 of 1581 (840231)
09-26-2018 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1522 by Tangle
09-26-2018 1:15 AM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
My list is of people who share a theology, and again I doubt you are familiar with even half of them, or read any of them at all. However, the Catholic Lord Acton had some valuable things to say. And G.K. Chesterton too.

No-one has special knowledge Faith. No-one.

This hits me as a bizarrre non sequitur. What ARE you trying to say?

If you were at all familiar with any of those on my list I don't see how you could keep up this nonsense.

All everyone is doing is a form of literary criticism of you book and making stuff up about it that they like or dislike. There is nothing else to go on.

It is so strange to see what you unbelievers come up with about something I've spent years studying and know to be amazingly consistent and full of complex layers of meaning. "Nothing else to go on?" You really have no idea what you are talking about. You decided some time or other that all religion is false I guess and you've got yourself so convinced of that you just continue to say stuff that fits with tht assumption and can't seem to take in any contrary information.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1522 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 1:15 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1524 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 10:54 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6183
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 1524 of 1581 (840234)
09-26-2018 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1523 by Faith
09-26-2018 4:40 AM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Faith writes:

It is so strange to see what you unbelievers come up with about something I've spent years studying and know to be amazingly consistent and full of complex layers of meaning. "Nothing else to go on?" You really have no idea what you are talking about. You decided some time or other that all religion is false I guess and you've got yourself so convinced of that you just continue to say stuff that fits with tht assumption and can't seem to take in any contrary information.

The entirity of your belief system rest on one single book - a collection of short stories. The stories are folk tales, myth and legend. There's no reason why anyone would have anymore knowledge about what's written in there than anyone else.

Istead, what you *do* have is a multitude of different personal opinions which can't be resolved but can be exploited. So much so that civilisations have clashed over them for thousands of years. It really is time we all grew up.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1523 by Faith, posted 09-26-2018 4:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1525 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 11:10 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 1532 by Faith, posted 09-26-2018 12:41 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1525 of 1581 (840235)
09-26-2018 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1524 by Tangle
09-26-2018 10:54 AM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Tangle writes:

The entirety of your belief system rest on one single book - a collection of short stories. The stories are folk tales, myth, and legend. There's no reason why anyone would have any more knowledge about what's written in there than anyone else.

Unless of course God actually existed. Lets say that He did. Would you expect to understand Him? Would you find it silly that others claimed to have any sort of understanding? Maybe they were improving their understanding while you were off fishing. Or maybe while you were fishing you meditated peacefully and improved your understanding without you even being aware of what it was that you were gaining an understanding of.

Its all about belief. Forget evidence.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1524 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 10:54 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1526 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 11:25 AM Phat has responded
 Message 1530 by jar, posted 09-26-2018 12:01 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6183
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1526 of 1581 (840238)
09-26-2018 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1525 by Phat
09-26-2018 11:10 AM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Phat writes:

Unless of course God actually existed. Lets say that He did. Would you expect to understand Him? Would you find it silly that others claimed to have any sort of understanding? Maybe they were improving their understanding while you were off fishing. Or maybe while you were fishing you meditated peacefully and improved your understanding without you even being aware of what it was that you were gaining an understanding of.

People are claiming knowledge of the book that's not in the book. Are you saying that god is talking to them privately, explaing things? If so why is Faith's position not the same as GDR's? Is he telling different people different stories? Is he lying to some? All?

Its all about belief. Forget evidence.

If it's all about belief, then it's worthless as people can and do believe anything and everything and the paricular belief is merely a matter of birth.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1525 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 11:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1527 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 11:36 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 1534 by Faith, posted 09-26-2018 12:47 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1527 of 1581 (840241)
09-26-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1526 by Tangle
09-26-2018 11:25 AM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Why is belief worthless? It's a foregone conclusion that people will disagree.

You seem to think that for anything to be valid everyone has to agree on its substance.

what you *do* have is a multitude of different personal opinions which can't be resolved but can be exploited. So much so that civilizations have clashed over them for thousands of years. It really is time we all grew up.
It is true we should be wary of exploitation. What I ask is "why does growing up involve abandoning all belief?" Belief serves a human purpose. It inspires. It fuels the imagination. It provides hope. It resolves inner angst (though in some cases it DOES cause it)

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1526 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 11:25 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1528 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 11:48 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6183
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 1528 of 1581 (840243)
09-26-2018 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1527 by Phat
09-26-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Why are you avoiding answering my questions?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1527 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 11:36 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1529 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 11:58 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1529 of 1581 (840244)
09-26-2018 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1528 by Tangle
09-26-2018 11:48 AM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Are you saying that God is talking to them privately, explaining things?
I don't believe that God usually gives us direct answers. He stimulates our thinking. We don't simply all receive one similar answer.
If so why is Faith's position not the same as GDR's?
Faith and GDR disagree in minor matters. Faith is highly dogmatic and her belief centers on strict Biblical Inerrancy as well as Gods infallible perfection. This leaves little room for discussion. GDR emphasizes Jesus as a living presence and disregards strict interpretation of the book as limiting and even idolatrous.
Is he telling different people different stories?
No. People make up their own stories based on what their inner perception is.
Is he lying to some?
No. They lie to themselves.
All?
Highly doubtful. If so, God is unlike what we have taught that He is. I can see why you would conclude that it is better to ignore Him altogether rather than risk finding out He is the wrong God!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1528 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 11:48 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1531 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 12:07 PM Phat has responded
 Message 1554 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2018 2:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1530 of 1581 (840245)
09-26-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1525 by Phat
09-26-2018 11:10 AM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Phat writes:

Its all about belief. Forget evidence.

And so Coyote and Jesus and Zeus and Satan and Raven and Allah and Ra and Thor and Aphrodite and Ganesha are all equally valid beliefs.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1525 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 11:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1550 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 2:21 PM jar has responded

  
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