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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
ringo
Member
Posts: 15398
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1561 of 1581 (840311)
09-26-2018 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1548 by Faith
09-26-2018 2:11 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Faith writes:

The definition of a follower of Christ is a sheep.


The problem you guys have is that you misunderstand what "follow" and 'believe" mean. Sheep do, in fact, follow their shepherd and do what he wants them to do. Whether or not they believe his pedigree is not important.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1548 by Faith, posted 09-26-2018 2:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1563 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 3:57 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1562 of 1581 (840312)
09-26-2018 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1558 by ringo
09-26-2018 3:31 PM


Re: Is There Consensus On Who Are Goats And Who Are Sheep?
ringo writes:

What would you think of a human who caused a gigantic flood that killed millions of people? What would you think of a human who threatened to torture millions with fire? You'd have the same assessment of your God as I do if you weren't working so hard at doublethink.

In this case, I go with evidence. I do not see the stories as accurately nor actually representing GOD as to what He inferred to the humans of that time. I also see jars argument concerning the lack of evuidence of a bottleneck (hourglass shape) in the fossil record which would be the case if the flood were literal. That being said, I believe that as a parable the story stands on its own merits. It would make no sense for a God to need to do such a thing if in fact He foreknew the end result. And even if He did not, what would make Him think that the new people from Noah and family would behave any better than the old bunch did?(given a few generations) In conclusion, I dont see God as directly doing such things. The fact that it was written that way only means that the authors wrote it as they understood it...not necessarily how it was.

God is beyond word for word literalism. God represents thought for thought introspection and personal growth within the humans who commune with Him. Understanding of God is still evolving as we learn more. Only fools think we have outgrown Him or the need for Him. We humans will never attain full potential without help.

We're talking about God here. Why would God be afraid of people eating his food?
The question is whether God would tolerate people in His house who had a free and rebellious will that overrode His authority. You may describe Him as weak because of this, but the implications of Him controlling everyone are scarier.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1558 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 3:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1564 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 4:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1563 of 1581 (840313)
09-26-2018 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1561 by ringo
09-26-2018 3:49 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
The problem you guys have is that you misunderstand what "follow" and 'believe" mean. Sheep do, in fact, follow their shepherd and do what he wants them to do. Whether or not they believe his pedigree is not important.
It is important. The original sheep were the created angels, according to dogma. One of them decided he wanted to have his run of the place with no acknowledgment of the host. He ceased following at that point and became a rogue leader. A house divided against itself will not stand. Thus, the cherub got booted. My argument concerning you opening your house to any and all carries the same potential problem. Some of whom you invite in will not listen to your house rules. Every house needs rules. Even if you were powerful enough to make all of them listen, your character would be such that you allow your guests autonomy. With autonomy comes the risk of rogues like satan rearing their rebellious little heads and running amuck.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1561 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 3:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1565 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 4:07 PM Phat has responded
 Message 1566 by jar, posted 09-26-2018 4:08 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15398
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1564 of 1581 (840314)
09-26-2018 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1562 by Phat
09-26-2018 3:51 PM


Re: Is There Consensus On Who Are Goats And Who Are Sheep?
Phat writes:

In this case, I go with evidence.


Why cherry-pick one case to accept the evidence and reject all of the others? Why not go with the fact that there is no evidence of Jesus' resurrection?

Phat writes:

God represents thought for thought introspection and personal growth within the humans who commune with Him.


Clearly not. Why do you keep bringing up that falsehood?

Phat writes:

Only fools think we have outgrown Him or the need for Him.


Why is it foolish to cling to a need for Santa Claus and also foolish to outgrow a need for God?

Phat writes:

We humans will never attain full potential without help.


Empty platitude.

Phat writes:

The question is whether God would tolerate people in His house who had a free and rebellious will that overrode His authority.


The question is how COULD anybody override his authority?

Phat writes:

... the implications of Him controlling everyone are scarier.


Why? Unless he's a vicious sadistic bastard.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1562 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 3:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15398
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1565 of 1581 (840315)
09-26-2018 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1563 by Phat
09-26-2018 3:57 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Phat writes:

The original sheep were the created angels, according to dogma.


According to made-up bullshit.

Phat writes:

A house divided against itself will not stand.


God's house, a house belonging to a real God can... not... be... divided. What part of that do you not understand?

Edited by ringo, : Punc.tuation


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1563 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 3:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1568 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 4:38 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1566 of 1581 (840316)
09-26-2018 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1563 by Phat
09-26-2018 3:57 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Phat writes:

It is important. The original sheep were the created angels, according to dogma. One of them decided he wanted to have his run of the place with no acknowledgment of the host. He ceased following at that point and became a rogue leader.

But that is from Dante's Inferno NOT the Bible.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1563 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 3:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1567 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 4:33 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1567 of 1581 (840317)
09-26-2018 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1566 by jar
09-26-2018 4:08 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
So how does the Bible differ?

Revelation 12:7-9. writes:

“And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


So it is clear that Satan was cast out of heaven and 1/3 of the angels went with him. (roughly...dont see a specific reference, but according to dogma)

I suppose you will argue that Satan is portrayed in Job as an instrument of God. I'll go with that also...but it still portrays the tempter as a temperer. Just as iron is tempered into steel, humans are tempered into hopefully better characters.

What better character to temper us than one who was a rebel in the first place. Sorta like an ex thief helping the police provide better security.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1566 by jar, posted 09-26-2018 4:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1572 by jar, posted 09-26-2018 5:48 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1568 of 1581 (840318)
09-26-2018 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1565 by ringo
09-26-2018 4:07 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
ringo writes:

God's house, a house belonging to a real God can... not... be... divided. What part of that do you not understand?

You are the one suggesting He let everyone in. I'm merely pointing out that not everyone is a follower nor marches to the same drummer. By definition that entails potential division.

If you invite drunk bikers to your little daughters birthday party, you cant expect everything to go smoothly.

The question is how COULD anybody override his authority?
Because He gave them free will. If you gave everyone living at your house free will, they may well eat all of your food, sleep in your bed, and flaunt your ownership. Of course, you being a socialist may mean that you gave your house up to the common good anyway. For the life of me....

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1565 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 4:07 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1569 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 4:42 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15398
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1569 of 1581 (840319)
09-26-2018 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1568 by Phat
09-26-2018 4:38 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Phat writes:

You are the one suggesting He let everyone in.


Yes, because if He is God and not just Colonel Sanders, he shouldn't have any problems maintaining decorum.

Phat writes:

I'm merely pointing out that not everyone is a follower nor marches to the same drummer. By definition that entails potential division.


And God, by definition, entails not having to worry about a few potential tiffs between His guests.

Phat writes:

If you invite drunk bikers to your little daughters birthday party, you cant expect everything to go smoothly.


God can. What part of that do you not understand?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1568 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 4:38 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1570 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 4:45 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1570 of 1581 (840320)
09-26-2018 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1569 by ringo
09-26-2018 4:42 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
phat writes:

If you invite drunk bikers to your little daughters birthday party, you cant expect everything to go smoothly.


ringo writes:

God can. What part of that do you not understand?

He can't without over riding their free will, which is what you never want Him to do to you. (assuming He exists) are you suggesting that He can magically make you get along with everyone while still preserving your right to autonomy? How would He accomplish this?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1569 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 4:42 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1571 by ringo, posted 09-26-2018 4:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15398
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 1571 of 1581 (840321)
09-26-2018 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1570 by Phat
09-26-2018 4:45 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
Phat writes:

He can't without over riding their free will...


The idea of "free will" is pretty much nonsense.

Phat writes:

are you suggesting that He can magically make you get along with everyone while still preserving your right to autonomy?


Are you suggesting that he can't?

Phat writes:

How would He accomplish this?


Most parents manage to mediate between warring children without setting some of them up in solid gold playhouses and barbecuing the rest. Why is your God less capable than that?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1570 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 4:45 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1572 of 1581 (840329)
09-26-2018 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1567 by Phat
09-26-2018 4:33 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
The Bible as usual differs as being more complex than simply taking one proof text out of context.

Throughout the rest of the Bible Satan is described as the agent og God, doing only what God decides should be done.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1567 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 4:33 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1573 by Phat, posted 09-27-2018 8:32 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1573 of 1581 (840331)
09-27-2018 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1572 by jar
09-26-2018 5:48 PM


Yetzer Hara
From Wiki:
quote:
Satan, also known as the Devil, is an entity in the Abrahamic religions that seduces humans into sin or falsehood. In Christianity and Islam, he is usually seen as a fallen angel, or a jinni, who used to possess great piety and beauty but rebelled against God, who nevertheless allows him temporary power over the fallen world and a host of demons. In Judaism, Satan is typically regarded as a metaphor for the yetzer hara, or "evil inclination", or as an agent subservient to God.

To say that Satan is portrayed as an agent of God apparently originated in Judaism.

quote:
In Christianity, Satan is also known as the Devil and, although the Book of Genesis does not mention him, he is often identified as the serpent in the Garden of Eden. In medieval times, Satan played a minimal role in Christian theology and was used as a comic relief figure in mystery plays. During the early modern period, Satan's significance greatly increased as beliefs such as demonic possession and witchcraft became more prevalent. During the Age of Enlightenment, belief in the existence of Satan became harshly criticized. Nonetheless, belief in Satan has persisted, particularly in the Americas. In the Quran, Shaitan, also known as Iblis, is an entity made of fire who was cast out of Heaven because he refused to bow before the newly-created Adam and incites humans and jinn to sin by infecting their minds with waswās ("evil suggestions"). Although Satan is generally viewed as evil, some groups have very different beliefs.

Why do you dismiss the popular Christian belief, as you usually always do? We are not Jews.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1572 by jar, posted 09-26-2018 5:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1574 by jar, posted 09-27-2018 8:42 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1574 of 1581 (840334)
09-27-2018 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1573 by Phat
09-27-2018 8:32 AM


Re: Yetzer Hara
Phat writes:

Why do you dismiss the popular Christian belief, as you usually always do? We are not Jews.

Remember, Jesus was a Jew not a Christian. It was Jews that wrote the books of the Old Testament and Christianity itself originated as a Jewish sect.

Christianity is and always has been a revisionist religion that has changed over time.

Christianity, particularly the Biblical Inerrancy cult claim that all of the Bible was directed by God.

If that is the case then it is reasonable to look at what the Bible actually says and the VAST majority of what is written in both the Old and New Testaments show Satan an an agent of God doing what God directs. Even in the story of the Temptation of Jesus the Satan character acts only as an assayer, a tester.

When the apologists take a single passage out of context and ignore the vast amount of contradictory evidence contained in the stories the question should be "Why don't you dismiss them?"


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1573 by Phat, posted 09-27-2018 8:32 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1575 by Phat, posted 09-28-2018 4:51 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1575 of 1581 (840395)
09-28-2018 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1574 by jar
09-27-2018 8:42 AM


Re: Yetzer Hara
why do you consider yourself more Christian than Jewish? Do you see any Jewish beliefs that you have internalized? How are they similar to your Christian beliefs? Is it all one religion to you?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1574 by jar, posted 09-27-2018 8:42 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1576 by jar, posted 09-28-2018 6:52 PM Phat has responded

  
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