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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
ringo
Member
Posts: 14781
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 256 of 504 (836071)
07-09-2018 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
07-09-2018 7:57 AM


Re: Lets Get Back To Marketing
Phat writes:

They genuinely believe in what they are saying.


quote:
The easiest person to deceive is one's self. -- Robert Bulwer-Lytton

He also said, "You believe that easily which you hope for earnestly."


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 07-09-2018 7:57 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 28898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 257 of 504 (836072)
07-09-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by PaulK
07-08-2018 11:58 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
I wasn't being nasty, I was just saying if I can't make sense of what you are saying I often don't address it. and if you bring it up again I just don't recognize it because it never made any sense to me anyway. Which is the case with this idea that the Bible should have mentioned other empires. Right, God will appreciate your advice I'm sure.

Historically there is no other empire that fits the prophecies but the Roman Empire that followed Greece.

And I'm not looking to a revival of the Roman Empire myself, I think it never came to an end, that the Roman Church that became head over the Holy Roman Empire continued it. It's apparently not in operation now but it's only been a couple hundred years and it's merely underground as a political force. The Vatican is a political entity. It's never died. It's just waiting for the opportunity. Whether a Pope will be THE end times Antichrist or not I'm not sure, it's certainly clear that the papacy itself fits all the requirements for the job, but we need a military leader in that role. In any case it has to be someone from "the people who are to come" that Titus represented.

No. Four empires, Roman the last. Wait and see.

ABE: This certainly would explain how the fourth empire is radically different from all the others, and if it's a religious leader, say a Pope, in the role of Antichrist, it explains why that character is also different from all other kings. In other words it fits the prophecies.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by PaulK, posted 07-08-2018 11:58 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 12:17 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14193
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 258 of 504 (836073)
07-09-2018 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
07-09-2018 12:01 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
quote:

I wasn't being nasty, I was just saying if I can't make sense of what you are saying I often don't address it

If you can’t be bothered to understand my points the least you could try and do is be honest about it instead of attacking me.

quote:

Historically there is no other empire but the Roman Empire that followed Greece.

So the Ottoman Empire and the British Empire - to name the two most obvious examples - never existed ?

quote:

And I'm not looking to a revival of the Roman Empire myself, I think it never came to an end, that the Roman Church that became head over the Holy Roman Empire continued it.

The Catholic Church is not an Empire, the “Holy Roman Empire” was a confederation of Germanic princes - Roman and an Empire in name only, and the relationship with the Catholic Church was rather more complicated than the Church controlling the so-called Empire. And excepting the Crusades the so-called “Holy Roman Empire” had almost nothing to do with the region of interest to the author of Daniel.

So, not very convincing. Even if the “Holy Roman Empire” was still around it wouldn’t be convincing.

quote:

In any case it has to be someone from "the people who are to come" that Titus represented.

Don’t forget that Titus wasn’t a ruler when he took Jerusalem so his qualifications as “Prince” are rather lacking.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 12:01 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 1:02 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 259 of 504 (836074)
07-09-2018 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by PaulK
07-09-2018 12:17 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
I wasn't attacking you, I was exp0laining why I didn't know what you awere talking anout. Introducing other empires makes no sense. We have the four in szctipture and that's what the prophecies are abnout, not any other empires.

I know all that about the Holy Romaqn Empire. I'm sure the final versiojn will be everything the prophecies ask for. However, I haven't run across this interpretation anywhere either, it's really my own thoughts, so you can ignore it if you like.

The Bible is a supernatural work. God is interested in the entire world, not just whatever you think is the "region of interest to the author of Daniel." You'll never get any of this if you stick to the antisupernaturalist "scholars." But you are operating under the handicap of not being saved so I really can't expect more.

Your remark about Titus is a case in point. He became a ruler. He's a model for an end times leader that includes the little horn of Daniel 7 for which the little horn of Daniel 8 is another model and not the fulfillment.

Wait and see. It's all coming together.

Wait and see.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 12:17 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 1:15 PM Faith has responded
 Message 261 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 1:45 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14781
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 260 of 504 (836075)
07-09-2018 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
07-09-2018 1:02 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
Faith writes:

We have the four in szctipture and that's what the prophecies are abnout, not any other empires.


That would be true if the prophecies were meant for the relatively short term. If they were meant for our time, we'd expect new empires to emerge.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 1:02 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 1:46 PM ringo has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14193
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 261 of 504 (836076)
07-09-2018 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
07-09-2018 1:02 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
quote:

I wasn't attacking you, I was exp0laining why I didn't know what you awere talking anout.

And the real reason was not that I was making no sense - your claim - but that you couldn’t be bothered to understand.

quote:

Introducing other empires makes no sense. We have the four in szctipture and that's what the prophecies are abnout, not any other empires.

In other words, if the prophecy doesn’t fit reality, you ignore reality.
Now that doesn’t make sense to me.

quote:

I know all that about the Holy Romaqn Empire. I'm sure the final versiojn will be everything the prophecies ask for.

That’s pretty obviously impossible.

quote:

The Bible is a supernatural work. God is interested in the entire world, not just whatever you think is the "region of interest to the author of Daniel."

Aside from the absurdity of ignoring the text - the author of Daniel does deal only with a small part of the world whether you like it or not - expanding the scope only makes things worse for you. Obviously the Mongol Empire - the largest land empire ever - would deserve a mention.

quote:

You'll never get any of this if you stick to the antisupernaturalist "scholars."

Apparently you think that the author of Daniel is an “antisupernaturalist scholar” because I got that directly from reading the Book of Daniel.

quote:

But you are operating under the handicap of not being saved so I really can't expect more.

Funny how this “handicap” helps me understand the Bible far better than you.

quote:

Your remark about Titus is a case in point. He became a ruler. He's a model for an end times leader that includes the little horn of Daniel 7 for which the little horn of Daniel 8 is another model and not the fulfillment.

Indeed, it is a case where I understand the Bible better than you - because I am not locked into false dogma.

quote:

Wait and see. It's all coming together.

Wait and see.


You do love your crazy fantasies. Probably because of all your hate. There is no Roman Empire. There is no prospect of the real Roman Empire returning. The historical empires which ruled the Middle East after the expulsion of the Romans really did exist. We are not living less than 490 years after the decree of Artaxerxes. The Diadochi kingdoms are long gone. Facts, Faith. The actual prophecy failed. It failed long, long ago.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 1:02 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 1:47 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 1:55 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 262 of 504 (836077)
07-09-2018 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by ringo
07-09-2018 1:15 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
We have the four in szctipture and that's what the prophecies are abnout, not any other empires.

That would be true if the prophecies were meant for the relatively short term. If they were meant for our time, we'd expect new empires to emerge.

Why?

Scripture says four, period. You don't think God can see into the furture?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 1:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 2:11 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 263 of 504 (836078)
07-09-2018 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by PaulK
07-09-2018 1:45 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
All my hate. Sigh. And here I love you all enough to give you a heads up for what is coming.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 1:45 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 1:59 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 264 of 504 (836079)
07-09-2018 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by PaulK
07-09-2018 1:45 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
Scripture is concerned with a certain sequence of empires that are revealed to be of the same mind and spirit, from Babylon to Rome. Other empires may have a similar mindset but they are not part of the prophecy which does point to an end times Roman Empire. No it is not over. Wait and see

Of course I do think it is right on the horizon, or waiting in the wings, perhaps to emerge on stage rather suddenly. That's why I keep saying Wait and see. Of course I could be wrong.

Nevertheless Wait and see.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 1:45 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 2:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14193
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 265 of 504 (836080)
07-09-2018 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
07-09-2018 1:47 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
But you aren’t. It’s all,a fantasy. You only believe the insane idea of the Roman Catholic Church merging with Islam in the near future because you unthinkingly hate both.

Islam itself becoming a unified force in the near term is unlikely, to say the least. And how you could imagine that Islam and the RC Church could possibly join together without implausibly large doctrinal shifts on at least one side is beyond me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 1:47 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 2:04 PM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 429 by Faith, posted 07-18-2018 1:37 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 266 of 504 (836081)
07-09-2018 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by PaulK
07-09-2018 1:59 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
This Pope has been blatantly ignoring Christian doctrine since he took office, so doctrine is not a problem for the RC Church, and recent Popes have been going out of their way to be accepting toward all kinds of nonChristian religions, this Pope more than them all; he's even put his arms around atheism. Wait and see.

Oh and none of my assessments are "unthinking," I've been learning about all this stuff for many years now. You really should take advantage of my knowledge.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2018 1:59 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14193
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 267 of 504 (836082)
07-09-2018 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Faith
07-09-2018 1:55 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
quote:

Scripture is concerned with a certain sequence of empires that are revealed to be of the same mind and spirit, from Babylon to Rome. Other empires may have a similar mindset but they are not part of the prophecy which does point to an end times Roman Empire. No it is not over. Wait and see

So this “same mindset” - which is conveniently not defined (nor mentioned in Daniel) is your supposed reason for the prophecy missing out all the other empires. Even though the fourth empire is supposedly different. And aside from the obvious ad hoc invention you still have the problem that Rome is gone, it can’t simply reappear and scripture doesn’t say anything about that.

quote:

Of course I do think it is right on the horizon, or waiting in the wings, perhaps to emerge on stage rather suddenly. That's why I keep saying Wait and see. Of course I could be wrong.

You’re obviously wrong. Even the Bible disagrees with you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 1:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14781
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 268 of 504 (836083)
07-09-2018 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
07-09-2018 1:46 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
Faith writes:

Scripture says four, period. You don't think God can see into the furture?


You're ignoring empires that did exist - e.g. the Ottoman and British Empires - because they' re not mentioned in the prophecy. Logically, either the time of the prophecy is past or your identification of the empires it mentioned is wrong. You can' t reverse-engineer history to fit the prophecy.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 1:46 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 2:12 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 28898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 269 of 504 (836084)
07-09-2018 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by ringo
07-09-2018 2:11 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
Wait and see.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 2:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 07-09-2018 2:46 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14781
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 270 of 504 (836086)
07-09-2018 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Faith
07-09-2018 2:12 PM


Re: Daniel: Maccabean versus Futurist
Faith writes:

Wait and see.


No, it isn't about whether or not your interpretation will turn out to be true. It's your whole rationale that's wrong. You make the same mistake that you make with the flood story: you assume that (your interpretation of) the Bible is correct and you mangle the facts to fit your interpretation. What you should be doing is using reality to check whether or not your interpretation is valid.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 2:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 07-09-2018 3:10 PM ringo has responded

  
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